Thread: At what point should fetuses be considered humans?

The fundamental disagreement in the abortion debate is the question of when a cluster of cells becomes a human being. Human development begins once the egg cell and sperm cell combine, but is this a fair measuring point from which you can call something a human?

People legally become adults at 18, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we said that they're a child one day and an adult the next. The same belief can be applied to human development. The point when the sperm cell and egg cell do not make the cell cluster a human instantaneously; it's still a cluster of cells that is invisible to the naked eye and bears absolutely no resemblance to a human being. It feels no pain, has no thinking ability and will not do these things for a considerable amount of time.

I think late-term abortions should not be allowed for the sake of convenience, but almost 90% of abortions take place during the first trimester. If we're to establish a guidelines based on logic and not our own personal ethics and morals, then I think a good bright line is the point at which a fetus develops sensory functions and thinking ability. The argument that stopping the development of a cluster of cells, which are a tenth the size of my fingernail, constitutes murder makes little sense to me.

Originally Posted by Chase

I think late-term abortions should not be allowed for the sake of convenience, but almost 90% of abortions take place during the first trimester. If we're to establish a guidelines based on logic and not our own personal ethics and morals, then I think a good bright line is the point at which a fetus develops sensory functions and thinking ability. The argument that stopping the development of a cluster of cells, which are a tenth the size of my fingernail, constitutes murder makes little sense to me.

Here we are agreeing again!

There are four main delineations of "personhood"

The first you have identified - conception
the second is implantation - this is because development will not occur without implantation and about 50% of fertilised eggs fail to implant
The third - and surprisingly the one used in some Islamic countries "quickening" or when the first foetal movements are felt
The final one is viability - the the foetus crosses the line into ability to independently survive

I lean towards viability as the cut off and my reasons are complex for this.

As for late term abortions - the vast majority are carried out because of either gross foetal abnormality (nature can be very cruel at times) or life-threatening maternal distress

Originally Posted by bowerbird

As for late term abortions - the vast majority are carried out because of either gross foetal abnormality (nature can be very cruel at times) or life-threatening maternal distress

Exactly, and I do think that it should be an option if birth could pose a threat to the mother and/or fetus. What I do oppose is people waiting too late to have an abortion and deciding to receive one 7 months into their pregnancy.

Originally Posted by Chase

Exactly, and I do think that it should be an option if birth could pose a threat to the mother and/or fetus. What I do oppose is people waiting too late to have an abortion and deciding to receive one 7 months into their pregnancy.

At that point the foetus is viable - more commonly than that is the latest trend for "early birth". Women are demanding early birth for various reasons - including "won't stretch me too much" sure, we can save bubs as little as 24 weeks but that does not mean those tiny ones do not spend weeks in NICU with tubes and machines, But these cases of what amounts to child abuse are ignored in favour of a few late term abortions. To bring a woman whose every hormone and brain cell is preparing her for motherhood to the point of abortion usually requires a very very very strong impetus. Something overwhleming must be making her do it.

I believe they are human beings from the moment the egg is fertilized. From that moment on they are simply human beings at some point along a developmental continuum. I don't have a problem with abortion for fetal abnormalies or the health of the mother.

Two years after they are born after their naming ceremony.

Originally Posted by Dutch

I believe they are human beings from the moment the egg is fertilized. From that moment on they are simply human beings at some point along a developmental continuum. I don't have a problem with abortion for fetal abnormalies or the health of the mother.

Most people don't have a problem with that Dutch - and the few that do, well I take them on a short walk down Pathology's guys pictures and they soon decide otherwise.

As I said - mother nature can be cruel and not every fertilised egg works out

But taking choice away is worse. Mrs. Feetie's (and mine) first pregnancy was a tubal. We lost the baby. My son is 15 my daughter 10. The two most wonderful kids. But I still think about that first baby. So I don't like the idea of abortion. However you can't really call a fetus a person until it can survive on its own outside the mother.

Originally Posted by Feetie

But taking choice away is worse. Mrs. Feetie's (and mine) first pregnancy was a tubal. We lost the baby. My son is 15 my daughter 10. The two most wonderful kids. But I still think about that first baby. So I don't like the idea of abortion. However you can't really call a fetus a person until it can survive on its own outside the mother.

Aw, sorry to hear about that. A cousin of mine and his wife went through a miscarriage, it's a tough thing. They have two young kids now though.