Thread: Why do males have an abortion opinion?

You're right in one sense.

Individualism IS at the core of classic liberalism, which is what makes progressivism a perversion / "liberal" a misnomer for the modern day incarnation.

Originally Posted by JayDubya

Whereas my abortion argument, like virtually every other argument I make, is informed by strict individualism.

I'm a supporter of individualism too, but fail to see how you square "strict individualism" with these two statements:

Originally Posted by JayDubya

It is entirely reasonable to favor gender equity and wholly disfavor the legality of abortion.

Originally Posted by JayDubya

Just like with slavery abolitionists, a large portion of abortion abolitionists are strongly religious. These groups often tend to promote a patriarchal view of society, without a doubt.

Religious groups by their nature are collectivist and passing laws limiting what people can do with their own bodies is anti-individualist so I'm interested in how you can maintain an individualist stance while supporting religious order and the imposition of laws restricting human actions which affect only themselves.

Originally Posted by JayDubya

Individualism IS at the core of classic liberalism, which is what makes progressivism a perversion / "liberal" a misnomer for the modern day incarnation.

Those using the classical liberalism tag typically use it to avoid the reality of capitalism and a non-utopian understanding of 'limited government'. However, that's of course irrelevant to the thread's topic. I'd refer to the authoritarian personality and its link to abortion. The concept comes from Adorno et al. (1950, The authoritarian personality. New York: Harper & Row) and can be summarised with the following traits:

1) Blind allegiance to conventional beliefs about right and wrong
2) Respect for submission to acknowledged authority
3) Belief in aggression toward those who do not subscribe to conventional thinking, or who are different
4) A negative view of people in general - i.e. the belief that people would all lie, cheat or steal if given the opportunity
5) A need for strong leadership which displays uncompromising power
6) A belief in simple answers and polemics - i.e. The media controls us all or The source of all our problems is the loss of morals these days.
7) Resistance to creative, dangerous ideas. A black and white world-view.
8) A tendency to project one's own feelings of inadequacy, rage and fear onto a scape-goated group
9) A preoccupation with violence and sex

Both Duncan et al. (1997, Authoritarianism and gender roles: Toward a psychological analysis of hegemonic relationships. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, Vol 23, pp 41–49) and Peterson et al. (1993, Authoritarianism and attitudes toward contemporary social issues. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, Vol 19, pp 174–184) find that greater authoritarianism is associated with greater opposition to abortion

Admittedly the paper referenced earlier adopts a different definition for individualism: The individualism scale included six items focused on private faith, personal ethical decisions, personal religious choices, independence in personal affairs and in work decisions, and religious education.

Good points about authoritarianism vs. individualism, but this doesn't negate JayDubya's comments about the collectivist nature of modern day liberalism.

What we are seeing as both sides increasingly polarize and move to extremes is a loss of individuality and a move towards subjugation to the authoritarian group; one liberal and the other conservative. A dictator, benign or not, good intentions or not is still a dictator.

Originally Posted by Divine Wind

Good points about authoritarianism vs. individualism, but this doesn't negate JayDubya's comments about the collectivist nature of modern day liberalism.

I've dismissed that on two counts. First, its simply a politically biased skewing of 'limited government' (which modern liberalism still follows). Second, its irrelevant to my argument and to the thread's topic

Originally Posted by Æthelfrith

I've dismissed that on two counts. First, its simply a politically biased skewing of 'limited government' (which modern liberalism still follows). Second, its irrelevant to my argument and to the thread's topic

First, explain to me how entitlements and increasing the size of government are following "limited government". Don't bother fingering Bush and his excesses in both areas because I'd agree it is against the precepts of Republican principles regarding the Federal government.

Second, nice dodge. Make your off-topic point then declare anyone who comments about to be irrelevant and off-topic.

Originally Posted by Divine Wind

Second, nice dodge. Make your off-topic point then declare anyone who comments about to be irrelevant and off-topic.

I've merely referred to the paper's referenced. First, the authoritarian personality is a right wing phenomenon and can be applied to abortion attitudes. Second, liberal abortion attitudes are associated with a preference for individualism. I don't find the attacks on Liberalism interesting or relevant to the thread.

Originally Posted by Æthelfrith

First, the authoritarian personality is a right wing phenomenon and can be applied to abortion attitudes. Second, liberal abortion attitudes are associated with a preference for individualism. I don't find the attacks on Liberalism interesting or relevant to the thread.

It becomes relevant when those who advocate individualism also advocate gun-control and a leaning towards socialist control of the society. If you want to give all of your money to the poor, I applaud your generosity, but don't require me to do likewise. Now this part is off-topic, but it demonstrates that your use of the phrase "liberal abortion attitudes are associated with a preference for individualism" to be flawed.

We are agreed that an authoritarian attitude is anti-individualist. Where we differ is that I also believe any big government attitude, be it liberal or conservative, is anti-individualist. Drugs, guns, abortion, lifestyle choices, polygamy, you name it. All laws which prohibit consenting and lawful adults from doing something consensually between themselves or to themselves is anti-individualist. It doesn't make sense to say " we protect individualism by being pro-choice and pro-gay marriage" then be pro-gun-control or promote stronger drug laws.

Originally Posted by Divine Wind

It becomes relevant when those who advocate individualism also advocate gun-control and a leaning towards socialist control of the society.

Socialism refers to ownership and control of the means of production. Irrelevant to the thread one would think!

Now this part is off-topic, but it demonstrates that your use of the phrase "liberal abortion attitudes are associated with a preference for individualism" to be flawed.

Flawed? Its a summary of the empirical evidence presented in the source referenced. Folk might not like such evidence, but we cannot ignore it just to keep them comfortable within their political bias.

We are agreed that an authoritarian attitude is anti-individualist. Where we differ is that I also believe any big government attitude, be it liberal or conservative, is anti-individualist. Drugs, guns, abortion, lifestyle choices, polygamy, you name it.

I've referred specifically to the authoritarian personality. That it cannot be applied to liberalism is a matter of fact. That it can be applied to abortion attitudes is an empirical result.

Originally Posted by Æthelfrith

I've referred specifically to the authoritarian personality. That it cannot be applied to liberalism is a matter of fact. That it can be applied to abortion attitudes is an empirical result.

True when referring to "classic liberalism" as JayDubya mentioned. The actions of what passes for liberals today are decidedly less about individualism and more about Big Brother telling us what is best for us.

Originally Posted by JayDubya

You're right in one sense.

Individualism IS at the core of classic liberalism, which is what makes progressivism a perversion / "liberal" a misnomer for the modern day incarnation.