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Thread: Some Israelis Critical Of Trump

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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Some Israelis Critical Of Trump

    Note: This article does not attribute the remarks to Netanyahu, or any other high-ranking Israeli politician. It is left to the reader to imagine whether, by remaining silent, Netanyahu endorses these remarks, or simply has not yet formulated his response. It's very hard to get a read on actual Israeli politicians, as usual.





    JERUSALEM — President Trump’s threat to cut aid to the Palestinians has the potential to backfire, Israeli security officials and analysts warned Wednesday, saying it could weaken a Palestinian leadership that cooperates with Israel on security matters and fuel extremism by worsening already dire humanitarian conditions.

    Note: Whut "dire humanitarian conditions"? Inside Israel?

    Palestinian officials accused the United States of using bullying tactics after both Trump and U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley indicated that the administration may cut funding to the Palestinians if they do not enter into peace talks with Israel. Palestinians “will not be blackmailed,” said Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s executive committee.

    But concerns over a funding cut straddle both sides of the conflict. The United States contributes roughly $700 million annually to the Palestinians, about half of it through the United Nations agency charged with humanitarian relief for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA.

    “Cutting funding would not bring anything good to the situation,” said an Israeli security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic. “Doing this would end up making the Palestinian leadership even weaker.”

    From the outset, Trump’s quest to secure what he has described as the ultimate deal by brokering a Middle East peace process has appeared to the Palestinian side to be inherently skewed, given that it is led by Trump’s son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner, whose family supports settlements that the Palestinians see as illegally built in their future state.

    The dealbreaker, though, came with Trump’s decision last month to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which had Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas walking away before a plan had even been presented, saying it ignored Palestinian claims to the city.

    Representatives of the main Palestinian factions, including the militant group Hamas and Islamic Jihad, are set to meet later this month to decide on a response to the latest U.S. moves. Abbas, who has rejected armed conflict with Israel and whose security forces cooperate with the Israeli military and share intelligence, is already struggling politically. He is now likely to come under pressure to take a stronger stance or see himself further weakened.

    Note: The perennial problem with ME Arabs: that there is at present no clear way to empower moderates.

    Other Palestinian factions have criticized Abbas’s cooperation with Israel as collusion with the enemy.

    Note: Whut "cooperation with Israel"?

    If his Palestinian Authority, which has long benefited from U.S. funding, is weakened to a level where it collapses, “then there really would be no one to talk to or rely upon,” the Israeli security official said.

    Note: So what? Seriously....why is that bad thing, for anyone?

    The tweet Trump sent Tuesday evening threatening to cut aid was particularly inflammatory to Palestinians because it also said that Jerusalem had been taken “off the table” for negotiations, although the wording wasn’t clear.

    The White House did not attempt to clarify Trump’s tweets Wednesday morning, leaving uncertainty as to whether the president was walking away from his administration’s earlier assur*ances that the U.S. policy shift on Jerusalem would not preclude Palestinian claims to East Jerusalem in future negotiations.

    Later, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders was asked whether Trump is signaling a larger change in the U.S. position on borders and negotiations.

    “I don’t think so,” she replied. “It doesn’t affect the negotiations. We still want to continue to have conversations and continue the peace process. We’re still very much committed to that and hope we can continue to push forward in that point.”

    A U.S. official said there had been no word of such a shift either on the final status of Jerusalem or, in the days leading up to the tweets, about aid to the Palestinians. It was also not clear whether Trump was threatening to cut off all aid to the Palestinians.

    “He doesn’t want to give any additional funding until the Palestinians agree to come back to the negotiation table,” Haley said at the United Nations on Tuesday in response to a question on funding for UNRWA, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, which receives 40 percent of its annual budget from the United States. “We’re trying to move for a peace process, but if that doesn’t happen, the president is not going to continue to fund that situation.”

    Note: I could not possibly agree more.

    Other U.S. funding for the Palestinian Authority was already threatened by legislation moving through Congress that would cut off aid unless Palestinians can show it is not going to terrorists or their families.

    Note: This is the bill known as the Taylor Force Act, and it has passed the House. Expected to pass the senate and be signed by Trump into law. See more on this bill here: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/poli...tinian-funding

    Widespread protests against Trump’s plan to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem in which 12 Palestinians were killed have largely died down. But Palestinian militants have fired rockets from Gaza at a rate not seen since the 2014 war between Israel and Hamas, which controls the Palestinian enclave.

    Three more rockets were fired toward Israeli territory Wednesday, the Israeli military said.

    Note: why doesn't Israel seize all the military grade weapons in Gaza? HITF are terrorists smuggling them in?

    It is the impoverished Gaza Strip, where UNRWA operates schools, health clinics and other community projects, that is likely to be most affected by any cut to Palestinian funding.

    Some Israeli political leaders have lobbied for an end to U.S. funding to UNRWA, saying that its schools were used by Hamas during the latest conflict with Israel.

    But some of Israel’s defense officials see the agency’s work as an important counterbalance to Hamas, designated as a terrorist entity by Israel, the United States and the European Union.

    “Traditionally, the Israeli defense establishment has resisted pressure by Israeli hawks who want to shut down UNRWA funding,” said Ofer Zalzberg, a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group. “They say, if it’s not UNRWA, then education will be provided by Hamas.”

    The U.N. agency also works in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza where daily life for Palestinians is bleakest and armed factions find fertile ground for recruitment.


    Note: Nobody living inside Israel's borders should be deprived of food or medical care. That is unconscionable, but there;s no reason this UN/HAMAS group has to be the relief agency. These people live in Israel; let Israel care for them.

    *Snip*

    “Cutting aid to the Palestinians at this stage would have the opposite effect to what the Americans want,” said Moshe Maoz, an Israeli professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. “This is brutal pressure from the U.S. The situation in Gaza is terrible. If America cuts its aid, it would be catastrophic.”

    Note: WTF cares what Israeli university professors think? I'm sure this is a smart man, but he isn't making Israeli policy. His remarks are not attributable to Netanyahu. But if he is being truthful about conditions in Gaza, then Israel needs to step up and provide for these people. Immediately.

    In an article published in November on the website of the Institute for National Security Studies, Maj. Gen. Yoav Mordechai, head of COGAT, the Israeli military authority responsible for implementing government policy in the West Bank, urged the international community to increase funding to Gaza. Despite tightly restricting trade and movement, there is concern about the security fallout from a worsening humanitarian crisis.

    Note: Obviously, this general's remarks were not made in reaction to Trump's, but again. If conditions are horrible for Arabs living in Gaza, then Israel needs to address that, immediately.

    Alon Eviatar, a former adviser on Palestinian affairs to COGAT, said the fact the United States is even considering cutting funding to UNRWA is a significant change. In the past, he said, the agency was always treated as holy.

    “If the U.S. pulled out of its commitment to UNRWA, it could have a significant impact and even a domino effect on other countries funding it,” he said.

    Note: why is that a bad thing? What Western nation should be funding the payment of blood money to Arab terrorists?

    UNRWA has been fighting to save its budgets for much of the past decade as other world issues have become more prominent and the Palestinian refugee issue seen as less of a problem.

    The United States pays “the Palestinians HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year . . . with the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?” Trump tweeted Tuesday.

    Much of the remaining funding provided by the United States is distributed through USAID projects.

    [B]“The economic situation of the people of Gaza is very important from a security perspective,” said retired Gen. Eli Ben-Meir, former intelligence chief for the Israeli military. He added, however, that in his opinion UNRWA wasn’t the best organization to distribute aid.[/B]

    Note: NO SHIT.

    Haley said Tuesday that U.S. officials “still very much want to have a peace process,” but it quickly appeared that the strong-arm tactics could drive Palestinians further from the negotiating table.

    “It’s being perceived as deeply offensive,” Zalzberg said of Trump’s threat. “It’s been taken to say, ‘We will pay you to make a concession on Jerusalem.’ ”

    Note: Who is Zalzberg? Apparently, he runs a think tank on the ME from within Israel, and is readily available for hire. A professional, paid mouthpiece who doubtless will say whatever he is paid to say.

    https://www.crisisgroup.org/who-we-a.../ofer-zalzberg

    Palestinian officials say they are willing to return to negotiations, but not under coercion.

    “Jerusalem and its holy sites are not for sale, not with gold, nor with silver,” Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for Abbas, said in a statement. He said the Palestinian negotiations need to have international legitimacy and be based on a two-state solution.

    Note: What a fucking liar.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.95ad515419b9

    What a donkey girl scout mess. We can't run, we can't hide, and we can't make it stop. If I knew the answer, I'd be sitting in a conference room at The Hague, not a townhouse in Cleveland. I freely admit, all these moving parts are too much for any simplistic solution EXCEPT that doing the same thing we have always done has not brought about peace. It has not secured Israel. It has not empowered Arab moderates.

    It is MORALLY WRONG to pay tribute to terrorists, most of whom hate the US as much as they hate Israel. And the US is SUPPOSED to be a leader on the world stage, so if other western nations also cut off foreign aid to the "Palestinians", I think that's GREAT.

    But I do not understand why Israel allows any group of humans living within its borders to struggle for food or medical care or the other necessities of life. If ISRAEL needs US money to help feed these people, by all means, let's donate.

    In the meanwhile, the IDL needs to go find and remove every weapon of war located in Gaza. That's just crazy, allowing terrorists to stockpile grenade launchers, etc. INSIDE Israel's own borders.

    Why has Netanyahu not yet responded to Trump's announcement, that foreign aid to Palestine was at an end? Is it normal for the Israeli PM to keep silent on such matters?

    Your thoughts?

    (Let's see if we can discuss this with our inside, adult voices, shall we? There's been enough crabby baby talk on PH about Israel lately to last any of us a lifetime. Thank you.)
    Last edited by Madeline; 4th January 2018 at 02:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    That WashPo article was some of the most slanted journalism I have seen in a major paper. The casual reader is left with the impression that the official Israeli government position is that Trump was wrong to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem and is wrong to cut off aid to Palestinians.

    Etc.

    When in actual fact, it is a few "man in the street" interviews, cherry-picked, along with a quote from an Israeli general made several months ago, taken out of context.

    It's no wonder so many Americans are attracted to antisemitism, when they are being spoonfed that POV by the nation's leading print media.


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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Thanks from Madeline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    That is bullshit. One tiny little rocket goes off that can't even hurt anyone due to the dome, and there is an overwhelming response. Collective punishment. Hell, one time the tiny little rocket came from the west bank and Gazans were punished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    That WashPo article was some of the most slanted journalism I have seen in a major paper. The casual reader is left with the impression that the official Israeli government position is that Trump was wrong to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem and is wrong to cut off aid to Palestinians.

    Etc.

    When in actual fact, it is a few "man in the street" interviews, cherry-picked, along with a quote from an Israeli general made several months ago, taken out of context.

    It's no wonder so many Americans are attracted to antisemitism, when they are being spoonfed that POV by the nation's leading print media.

    OMG. The NYT is not antisemitic. They are very liberal, though. And most liberals in America strongly support the Palestinians. Not AGAINST Israel, but for their rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Note: This article does not attribute the remarks to Netanyahu, or any other high-ranking Israeli politician. It is left to the reader to imagine whether, by remaining silent, Netanyahu endorses these remarks, or simply has not yet formulated his response. It's very hard to get a read on actual Israeli politicians, as usual.







    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.95ad515419b9

    What a donkey girl scout mess. We can't run, we can't hide, and we can't make it stop. If I knew the answer, I'd be sitting in a conference room at The Hague, not a townhouse in Cleveland. I freely admit, all these moving parts are too much for any simplistic solution EXCEPT that doing the same thing we have always done has not brought about peace. It has not secured Israel. It has not empowered Arab moderates.

    It is MORALLY WRONG to pay tribute to terrorists, most of whom hate the US as much as they hate Israel. And the US is SUPPOSED to be a leader on the world stage, so if other western nations also cut off foreign aid to the "Palestinians", I think that's GREAT.

    But I do not understand why Israel allows any group of humans living within its borders to struggle for food or medical care or the other necessities of life. If ISRAEL needs US money to help feed these people, by all means, let's donate.

    In the meanwhile, the IDL needs to go find and remove every weapon of war located in Gaza. That's just crazy, allowing terrorists to stockpile grenade launchers, etc. INSIDE Israel's own borders.

    Why has Netanyahu not yet responded to Trump's announcement, that foreign aid to Palestine was at an end? Is it normal for the Israeli PM to keep silent on such matters?

    Your thoughts?

    (Let's see if we can discuss this with our inside, adult voices, shall we? There's been enough crabby baby talk on PH about Israel lately to last any of us a lifetime. Thank you.)
    Gaza is not within Israel's borders. I have never seen the likes of a poster such as yourself on this topic. Posting thread after thread on this subject when you don't even know the basics of the geography.
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    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    That is bullshit.
    No, it is not. Attacks on Israel - whether rocket attacks (my pic) or knife attacks (Madeline's pic) - which are practically routine in Israel, are routinely ignored by the press, and when Israel responds in self-defense the report is that "Israel attacks so-and-so" with little if any mention of the attack that precipitated Israel's response. That is fact.
    Thanks from Madeline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, it is not. Attacks on Israel - whether rocket attacks (my pic) or knife attacks (Madeline's pic) - which are practically routine in Israel, are routinely ignored by the press, and when Israel responds in self-defense the report is that "Israel attacks so-and-so" with little if any mention of the attack that precipitated Israel's response. That is fact.
    You have alternative facts, there, my friend. I don't know what stations you watch, but I see everytime there are terrible attacks like the knives that Madeline mentioned.

    As are the tiny rockets that don't hurt anyone due to the dome. Now, I know they still cause massive fear. I have seen Israelis run to bunkers in documentaries or when journalists are on the ground. I know the dome is not 100% protection, but come on. The comparison you make is the very opposite of reality. The disparity in mere ability. Must less what is done with it.
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    Veteran Member Madeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, it is not. Attacks on Israel - whether rocket attacks (my pic) or knife attacks (Madeline's pic) - which are practically routine in Israel, are routinely ignored by the press, and when Israel responds in self-defense the report is that "Israel attacks so-and-so" with little if any mention of the attack that precipitated Israel's response. That is fact.
    So when will Netanyahu offer us his opinion on Aid for Terrorists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    You have alternative facts, there, my friend. I don't know what stations you watch, but I see everytime there are terrible attacks like the knives that Madeline mentioned.

    As are the tiny rockets that don't hurt anyone due to the dome. Now, I know they still cause massive fear. I have seen Israelis run to bunkers in documentaries or when journalists are on the ground. I know the dome is not 100% protection, but come on. The comparison you make is the very opposite of reality. The disparity in mere ability. Must less what is done with it.
    Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9/29/2000

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