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Thread: Why Are American "Liberals" Failing Iranian Protesters?

  1. #31
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Goodness. What utter confusion! The hijab is a mark of piety for Muslim women. It's voluntary, not required, in the Koran. It becomes oppressive only when women are either required to wear it (as in Iran or a different cover in Saudi Arabia) or FORBIDDEN to wear it (as in Attaturk's Turkey, Iran under the Shah, or...France).

    When they are allowed to remove their hijabs, SOME women will remove them. Others will keep them on because they wanted to wear them in the first place. It's a mark of female empowerment when the decision on how to dress is up do women. So is a bikini--as long as no one is forcing women to wear bikinis.
    It's not even mentioned in the Qu'ran. Only to cover one's breasts. They must have boobs in weird places over there to ever misinterpret the Qu'ran in that way. Men are also supposed to dress modestly.

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    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Goodness. What utter confusion! The hijab is a mark of piety for Muslim women. It's voluntary, not required, in the Koran. It becomes oppressive only when women are either required to wear it (as in Iran or a different cover in Saudi Arabia) or FORBIDDEN to wear it (as in Attaturk's Turkey, Iran under the Shah, or...France).

    When they are allowed to remove their hijabs, SOME women will remove them. Others will keep them on because they wanted to wear them in the first place. It's a mark of female empowerment when the decision on how to dress is up to women. So is a bikini--as long as no one is forcing women to wear bikinis.
    I will grant that I oversimplified...

    But to call it piety, that doesn't cut it.

    How many honour killings in YOUR country per year because the woman removed the head dress?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    It's not even mentioned in the Qu'ran. Only to cover one's breasts. They must have boobs in weird places over there to ever misinterpret the Qu'ran in that way. Men are also supposed to dress modestly.
    As I understand it, the Qu'uran recounts that the prophet's sister and wife covered their hair as a sign of piety. It's not a requirement, but it's considered a way to show greater piety.

    All Muslims (including men) are supposed to dress modestly. You shouldn't see Muslim men running around in shorts or tank tops unless it's for a football match or something. Clothes have to be clean also.
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  4. #34
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    As I understand it, the Qu'uran recounts that the prophet's sister and wife covered their hair as a sign of piety. It's not a requirement, but it's considered a way to show greater piety.

    All Muslims (including men) are supposed to dress modestly. You shouldn't see Muslim men running around in shorts or tank tops unless it's for a football match or something. Clothes have to be clean also.
    Nope. It's a Hadith, not from the Qu'ran. Much of Muslim culture comes from these other books that purport to 'explain' Muhammad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    I will grant that I oversimplified...

    But to call it piety, that doesn't cut it.

    How many honour killings in YOUR country per year because the woman removed the head dress?
    Every religion has its own rules about behavior--I'm accurately recounting what Islam says, so far as I know.

    "Honor killings" don't happen over head covers. I'll grant you that women get beaten or arrested for not covering their heads in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but "honor killings" are about a more serious issue. And honor killings aren't a product of Islam--they predate Islam in Arab culture, which was even more oppressive to women before Islam (hard to believe, I know, but it's true).

    And you may not know this, but in secularized Islamic countries (Turkey until just a few years ago, Iran under the Shah) women were FORBIDDEN to wear head coverings. The Shah's police would actually go up to women and cut them off--same in Turkey under Ataturk and later. In France, religious people of all stripes are forbidden from wearing religious garb in public spaces like schools or government buildings. That includes large crosses on Christians and head coverings for Muslim women.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    Nope. It's a Hadith, not from the Qu'ran. Much of Muslim culture comes from these other books that purport to 'explain' Muhammad.
    Fair enough. I stand corrected. Thank you.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    I will grant that I oversimplified...

    But to call it piety, that doesn't cut it.

    How many honour killings in YOUR country per year because the woman removed the head dress?
    Probably zero. There are approx. 23 or so honor killings a year in the US out of 320M people. I rarely see a hijab anymore in my local area. My friend is Palestinian and she did not start wearing a head covering until she was 40, when she renewed her faith. Her husband tried to talk her out of it because he is proud of her beauty. She is truly one of the most beautiful women at age 50 I have ever seen. She has long black hair down to her hips and her reasoning, she doesn't want men looking at her, just her husband. I like to tease her...(she loves it) that it is not her hair but the way she fills out her jeans.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...stan/85642786/
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  8. #38
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Fair enough. I stand corrected. Thank you.
    In case you are curious:

    A hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎ ḥadīth, plural: ahadith, أحاديث, ʼaḥādīth[3]) is one of various reports describing the words, actions, or habits of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.[3] The term comes from the Arabic language and means a "report", "account" or "narrative".[4]:471 Unlike the Qur'an, which is the same literary work recognized by all Muslims, the ahadith are not one single same collection.

    The ahadith refers to different hadith collections, and different branches of Islam (Sunni, Shia, Ibadi) consult different collections of hadith, while the relatively small sect of Quranists reject the authority of any of the hadith collections altogether.[5][6]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

    IMO this is where all the bad stuff comes from, because it is not in the Qu'ran.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    Nope. It's a Hadith, not from the Qu'ran. Much of Muslim culture comes from these other books that purport to 'explain' Muhammad.
    It is a "weak hadith".

    As stated above, Imam Abu Dawud himself said that this is a mursal tradition (i.e. the narrator who transmitted it from 'Aisha is missing). What I interpret is that the narrator of this hadith is Khalid B. Duraik, who did not see 'Aisha (radhi Allahu anha, may Allah be pleased with her). Since this is a weak hadith, it has no value for the purpose of Shari'ah. That means that no Muslim, Islamic Republic, or government can pass laws punishing a Muslim woman who does not observe hijab, particularly covering the hair on her head. This is not being practiced in the so-called Islamic countries, where religious police with their canes are threatening and punishing Muslim women who do not observe hijab.

    All along, I have maintained in my arguments that Islam emphasizes modesty in the dress of a Muslim woman, but nowhere does it mandate the wearing of the hijab (head cover). As a matter of fact, modesty in dress is also required on the part of Muslim men.

    Is Head Cover For Women Mandatory In Islam?
    So it would be on a par with christians who believe dancing is sinful.
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  10. #40
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Every religion has its own rules about behavior--I'm accurately recounting what Islam says, so far as I know.

    "Honor killings" don't happen over head covers. I'll grant you that women get beaten or arrested for not covering their heads in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but "honor killings" are about a more serious issue. And honor killings aren't a product of Islam--they predate Islam in Arab culture, which was even more oppressive to women before Islam (hard to believe, I know, but it's true).

    And you may not know this, but in secularized Islamic countries (Turkey until just a few years ago, Iran under the Shah) women were FORBIDDEN to wear head coverings. The Shah's police would actually go up to women and cut them off--same in Turkey under Ataturk and later. In France, religious people of all stripes are forbidden from wearing religious garb in public spaces like schools or government buildings. That includes large crosses on Christians and head coverings for Muslim women.
    Honor killings are more about cultural differences, such as the conflict between what is accepted in the US and what is accepted in their home Countries. We just had one recently by a crazy father. His daughter was 28 and a pharmacist. She was killed for staying out late and not cleaning her room.

    Rocky River dad killed his daughter because of 'disrespect' | cleveland.com

    Rocky River prosecutor: father 'executed his own daughter' | cleveland.com
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