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Thread: Christian rehab or slave labor camp?

  1. #11
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    How gross. Jail would be better than this. Can you imagine the smell of that place? Yuck!!
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  2. #12
    Unarmed Addiction Solitaire Champion, Double Deuce Champion, Queen Jewels Champion, Ray Ray Shuffle Champion, Twins Champion, Blow Up: Arcade Champion, Bunch - Time Trial Champion, Znax Champion, Zoo Keeper Champion, Sobics School Champion, Swap a Smiley Champion, Makos Champion, Dino Drop Champion, Flower Frenzy Champion, Some Puzzle Champion, Funny Bubbles Champion, CubeZ Champion, Dinky Smash Champion, Fun Fun Animals Champion, Fruit Fabriek Champion, Raft Wars Champion, Rainbow Monkey RunDown Champion, Raft Wars Champion, Crime Puzzle Champion Blueneck's Avatar
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    . In addition to injuries, some men at CAAIR experience serious drug withdrawal, seizures and mental health crises, according to former employees. But the program doesnít employ trained medical staff and prohibits psychiatric medicine.
    Ridiculous.
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  3. #13
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Yea same here. Normally the courts are supposed to suggest various choices but in many instances AA is all there is that meets the courts requirements.
    And if the defendant challenges it, then it's up to the court to identify a secular alternative. Given that at least six of AA's "twelve steps" require the acknowledgement of a supernatural entity, courts can't mandate "twelve-step" programs.

    The trend of current case law shows that forcing a prisoner or probationer to attend A.A. or N.A. or other religiously centered rehabilitation program is increasingly seen as a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Courts from the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Circuits have all explicitly or implicitly ruled that this is true. In order to establish such a claim, prisoners must generally show three things: (1) that the program is religious; (2) that if they do not attend the program they will either (a) lose some benefit they are otherwise entitled to or (b) be subject to some detriment or punishment; and (3) that there is no secular alternative available.

    A growing body of law shows that prisoners and probationers may not be forced to attend A.A., N.A., or any other religiously based organization. Prisoners and probationers who feel they are being forced attend a religiously centered organization should request a secular alternative. If that request is denied, or if there is no secular alternative, prisoners should gather information about the program to show that it is religious in nature. Prisoners should then request that authorities not condition any benefit or threaten any punishment based on their refusal to attend the religious organization. If authorities refuse to comply, suit should be brought in Federal District Court alleging Establishment Clause violations under (multiple precedent cases deleted for brevity).
    https://ffrf.org/legal/item/14012-co...cipation-in-aa
    Last edited by Djinn; 10th October 2017 at 11:23 AM.
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  4. #14
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    Easy enough for you to say that, I suppose, but I see it happen on a fairly regular basis.
    Yes, when I was homeless in So. Cal I stayed for a couple weeks at a home sponsored by a church...

    And, I guess I have mixed feelings about the experience.

    I was the only homeless one there, the rest were mostly young people who were given the option to either stay in prison, or spend the last six months of their sentence at the home...

    And, this was kind of a nice home.. It was a house in the nicer part of Alhambra, a lady had donated the house, at least was letting the church use it while she and her daughter lived in the apartment over the garage...

    The house had a pool we were able to use once a week.

    The food was pretty good, Frank (the guy who ran it) had everyone apply for food stamps and General Assistance and turn that money over to the home.

    The garage had stacks and stacks of canned juice and other commodities, they bought fresh meat, like I say, the food was not bad.

    There was no TV except on Sunday nights, there was no smoking, no profanity, horseplay etc.

    And, Frank also had a yard service... you did have to work in some capacity, I ended up being the repair guy, but went out a few times puttering around with the guys.

    If you didn't comply, you go back to the can to finish your sentence.

    So, I did see some aspects as kind of a "racket," and I imagine a prospective candidate doesn't have any real idea what they are getting into...

    I left the home because I couldn't quit smoking, but also I got a little tired of being tied down and the regimen of the home.

    And along with being the only one who wasn't there semi-compulsory I was a good ten years older than the "gangsta" kids who were there, I suppose there were about 8 or 9 of us all together.

    Frank was a nice guy... he would give someone a few chances, but ultimately would send them back if he had to... he used to sleep on the kitchen floor, he also had three poodle dogs, one was smart as paint!

    So, this was different I imagine than the "factory" outlined in the OP, but that's my firsthand experience.

    Thx

  5. #15
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    And if the defendant challenges it, then it's up to the court to identify a secular alternative. Given that at least six of AA's "twelve steps" require the acknowledgement of a supernatural entity, courts can't mandate "twelve-step" programs.


    https://ffrf.org/legal/item/14012-co...cipation-in-aa
    The problem is that the folks who are being forced to attend AA meetings have neither the funding, nor the inclination to initiate a lawsuit. They have already paid fines and/or court costs for their trial and paid for their "rehab" alternative to going to jail. Having to sit through a few AA meetings is hardly their greatest concern at that moment in their lives. The entire "rehab" program is bullshit to begin with, so why worry about the AA bullshit, which is a but small portion of the overall bullshit program?
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  6. #16
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    The entire "rehab" program is bullshit to begin with....
    Recidivism stats?

  7. #17
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Recidivism stats?
    Alcoholics Anonymous has never officially released any recidivism statistics.

  8. #18
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Recidivism stats?
    I have no numbers to offer. The rehab program to which I am referring is what is commonly known as "drunk driving school", since that is the local program of which I'm aware that demands AA meeting attendance. Municipal courts will refer first time offenders for DUI or marijuana possession to this program. I can't speak for other criminal rehab programs, since I have no significant knowledge of them. I do, however, know several people who have attended the local "drunk driving" classes. And yes, they are bullshit.

  9. #19
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    I have no numbers to offer. The rehab program to which I am referring is what is commonly known as "drunk driving school", since that is the local program of which I'm aware that demands AA meeting attendance. Municipal courts will refer first time offenders for DUI or marijuana possession to this program. I can't speak for other criminal rehab programs, since I have no significant knowledge of them. I do, however, know several people who have attended the local "drunk driving" classes. And yes, they are bullshit.
    Two things about AA...

    First, it doesn't really work... if someone quits it is because they chose to do so, you cannot join some program that is going to make you quit, for the most part, it just doesn't work.

    Next... after sitting there listening to everyone's sob story, many just want to get out of there and go have a beer!

    Seriously, it's hard to put something behind you if you keep going back revisiting it, the best way to kick a habit like that is to disassociate yourself from it, not wallow in it.

    My 2 cents.

    Thx
    Thanks from Friday13, Madeline and MaryAnne

  10. #20
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thx1138 View Post
    Two things about AA...

    First, it doesn't really work... if someone quits it is because they chose to do so, you cannot join some program that is going to make you quit, for the most part, it just doesn't work.

    Next... after sitting there listening to everyone's sob story, many just want to get out of there and go have a beer!

    Seriously, it's hard to put something behind you if you keep going back revisiting it, the best way to kick a habit like that is to disassociate yourself from it, not wallow in it.

    My 2 cents.

    Thx
    I don't doubt that there are people who attended AA meetings and successfully stopped drinking. The unanswerable question is whether they could have or would have stopped drinking without attending AA meetings. I know a few people who have done just that.
    Thanks from Thx1138 and Friday13

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