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Thread: Walls

  1. #1
    Sally Sitter Paris's Avatar
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    Walls

    https://www.slp-cf.it/hait-desormais...ns-vergogne-1/
    "Today, we are witnessing an unusual phenomenon: there is both the hypertrophy of the link, facilitated by all imaginable technical means, and at the same time the rise of racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic and nationalist movements who aspire to the construction of closed universes. It is this last movement, discrimination, which gives the reason for the first: the link facilitated by the digital age is nothing other than the propagation of bubbles united in tight universes."
    https://www.lacanquotidien.fr/blog/w.../04/LQ-771.pdf
    "These tight bubbles that form on social networks can materialize in non-virtual reality. It is the current triumph of the walls: "It concerns between 6% and 18% of the 250 000 kilometers of borders in the world. "Today there are 70 to 75 walls built or advertised around the world, existing walls spanning approximately 40 000 kilometers, "as much as the circumference of the Earth, "says Élisabeth Vallet, Canadian political scientist at the University of Quebec in Montreal (UQAM). It's this high estimate that has struck the minds lately. These walls arise precisely at the moment when the scientific unity of the human race is demonstrated."


    "To want to eject the stranger, is not it a part of ourselves that we want to amputate? This link between the intimate and the other is fractured when the migrant is rejected. In Belgium, again, a bill is being discussed which should allow the arrest of a person in residence illegally where they live, whether it is their home or that of someone who houses them. Such project tackles citizens' solidarity with foreigners. It also attacks the privacy of each, the home being deemed inviolable.»

    This confrontation has already taken place in history. Our time will have to find solutions up to the challenge of the circumstances, without giving up on the transaction between security and civil liberties which continues to arise in ever new terms since its formulation in the eighteenth century by Benjamin Franklin. A people who surrender their freedom in the name of their security will lose both.
    The linked articles are both in French, but they may interest you enough to have them translated and read entirely.

    Anyway, I found them highly instructive and hope they will spur some sort of discussion about walls and civil rights.
    Last edited by Paris; 16th April 2018 at 08:54 PM.
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  2. #2
    RNG
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    I still do not have sympathy for the majority of adults who chose to enter another country illegally.

    And would you also agree that the authorities don't have the right to enter a residence where a suspected murderer or bank robber was allowed to hide out?

  3. #3
    Sally Sitter Paris's Avatar
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    Your conflation between an illegal immigrant and a murderer/robber is unfortunately what is precisely at stake when it comes to our fear of strangers, as exemplified by Trump calling them thieves and rapists.

    As to your lack of sympathy, well...
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    RNG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Your conflation between an illegal immigrant and a murderer/robber is unfortunately what is precisely at stake when it comes to our fear of strangers, as exemplified by Trump calling them thieves and rapists.

    As to your lack of sympathy, well...
    So, in your opinion, which laws is it OK to flaunt and which ones should be followed?

  5. #5
    Sally Sitter Paris's Avatar
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    Laws that tend to deprive us from our humanity shouldn't be followed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Laws that tend to deprive us from our humanity shouldn't be followed.
    A la Thoreau?

    Quote Originally Posted by On the Duty to Civil Disobedience
    Paley, a common authority with many on moral questions, in his chapter on the "Duty of Submission to Civil Government," resolves all civil obligation into expediency; and he proceeds to say that "so long as the interest of the whole society requires it, that is, so long as the established government cannot be resisted or changed without public inconveniency, it is the will of God... that the established government be obeyed- and no longer. This principle being admitted, the justice of every particular case of resistance is reduced to a computation of the quantity of the danger and grievance on the one side, and of the probability and expense of redressing it on the other." Of this, he says, every man shall judge for himself. But Paley appears never to have contemplated those cases to which the rule of expediency does not apply, in which a people, as well as an individual, must do justice, cost what it may. If I have unjustly wrested a plank from a drowning man, I must restore it to him though I drown myself. This, according to Paley, would be inconvenient. But he that would save his life, in such a case, shall lose it. This people must cease to hold slaves, and to make war on Mexico, though it cost them their existence as a people.
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  7. #7
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    I’m not much of a philosopher. I tend towards the practical middle ground.

    Undocumented migrants can only be A) Ignored, B) Documented, or C) Expelled.

    I don’t think choosing expulsion is “racist, bigoted, or fearful”. I think it’s common sense.

    Until it isn’t.

    It takes a massive amount of time and resources to expel a single person. Expelling tens of thousands is a national objective comparable to a moon landing.

    It is not worth it.

    That leaves A or B.


    Practical.

    If it were up to me I would give a pseudo-Canadian refugee status to any willing person with the limitations that you can only reside in the Arctic, you work 40 hours a week for the program (the community will find work for you) you will never be a citizen but your children are and will have full rights of education, mobility and employment . You keep the peace and you all live and work together. No isolated cultural groups, no carrying on the grudges of the old world. You can leave any time but if you do don’t come back.

    I can’t understand why we cherry pick a tiny percentage of refugees and give them Rolls Royce citizenship like a lottery win. Give everybody a little. A camp. A little makeshift village. HELP them with the basics. Not one lucky family gets their dreams come true and their cousins starve.
    Last edited by Dr.Knuckles; 16th April 2018 at 10:40 PM.
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  8. #8
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    It takes a massive amount of time and resources to expel a single person. Expelling tens of thousands is a national objective comparable to a moon landing.
    That is why many here want the armed forces to go around summarily expelling, then building a wall to keep them from coming back ... the belief in the use of raw force without due process, because they - like "criminals" - are not entitled to it; due process is for people identified in advance as "good guys," not "bad guys." There is whole ideology (not so much a philosophy) back there, one that extends in many other directions, that is more interested in self-righteousness than any other value.
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  9. #9
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    I still do not have sympathy for the majority of adults who chose to enter another country illegally.

    And would you also agree that the authorities don't have the right to enter a residence where a suspected murderer or bank robber was allowed to hide out?
    Pretending that the nation is a "private residence" and that people who come here almost exclusively looking for work are equivalent to murderers and bank robbers is fanatically alarmist. Americans do not "own" jobs that we haven't been hired to do. Frankly, we don't even "own" the nation itself.

    What right do I have to tell someone they can't be in a public park, or live with a cousin, or rent an apartment? What right do I have to tell someone he can't work somewhere and get paid? Yes, there is immigration law, but to me it seems more like me saying that someone can't drive a car because his driver's license is expired. Yeah, it's true that he can't legally drive, but it isn't like he is stealing something from me, or harming me.

    It's nothing like murder or theft.
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  10. #10
    Wrinkly Member Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    I’m not much of a philosopher. I tend towards the practical middle ground.

    Undocumented migrants can only be A) Ignored, B) Documented, or C) Expelled.

    I don’t think choosing expulsion is “racist, bigoted, or fearful”. I think it’s common sense.

    Until it isn’t.

    It takes a massive amount of time and resources to expel a single person. Expelling tens of thousands is a national objective comparable to a moon landing.

    It is not worth it.

    That leaves A or B.


    Practical.

    If it were up to me I would give a pseudo-Canadian refugee status to any willing person with the limitations that you can only reside in the Arctic, you work 40 hours a week for the program (the community will find work for you) you will never be a citizen but your children are and will have full rights of education, mobility and employment . You keep the peace and you all live and work together. No isolated cultural groups, no carrying on the grudges of the old world. You can leave any time but if you do don’t come back.

    I can’t understand why we cherry pick a tiny percentage of refugees and give them Rolls Royce citizenship like a lottery win. Give everybody a little. A camp. A little makeshift village. HELP them with the basics. Not one lucky family gets their dreams come true and their cousins starve.
    We in Britain are experiencing the horror of the government quietly changing the citizenship rules last year to exclude people who came from the commonwealth as children, brought by their parents who had the right to British citizenship, to help in the rebuilding after WW2. The government has just admitted deporting some of them!
    These are people who grew up in Britain, worked and paid taxes, and are now being denied benefits, healthcare, and even housing because their immigration status was never regularised.
    It gets worse.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8308936.html
    Last edited by Dangermouse; 17th April 2018 at 08:09 AM.

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