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Thread: Fake concept of fake news

  1. #11
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    Like many other things, it's not an exclusively Republican or even exlusively US thing, though.

    People unwilling to check sources and hearing only what they want to hear live everywhere and have lived since the beginning of humankind.

    News (real and fake) travel faster nowadays, yes, but 1) that doesn't change the nature of their content, and 2) unless I'm missing something huge (entirely possible with someone to whom PH is the closest thing to "social media" she uses), they don't travel THAT faster than, say, 5 or even 10 years ago when no one seemed that terrified and perplexed by the fact that people sometimes say and share things that aren't true.
    I think the difference is, until a certain person arrived in the spotlight, few people were actually calling things "fake news" or trying to suggest on a few examples, that entire free press networks were "fake" 24/7 instead of addressing and describing each example (individually) as to how they are fake, Simply saying something is fake, does not make it so, one still has to offer evidence to how it is fake. Audiences and varieties of social media as well as access to social media, still has grown in the last 5-10 years although you are likely correct that growth has not been as dramatic as it was at one time and not much, in a relative sense.

    The following certainly attests to people lying in the past and to how difficult or impossible it may be to undo a lie. With regard to "fake news" the question seems to be, which is fake, is it that major news outlets are spreading "fake" stories and are truly "enemies of the American people"or is that story about them, fake because they are reporting/spreading the truth and those they are telling the truth about, want to try to discredit those telling it, by calling their stories "fake"?

    "Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…"

    Jonathan Swift (1667-1745). Political Lying. Vol. III. Seventeenth Century. Henry Craik, ed. 1916. English Prose
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 9th June 2018 at 05:52 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotaFrayed View Post
    I think the difference is, until a certain person arrived in the spotlight, few people were actually calling things "fake news" or trying to suggest on a few examples, that entire free press networks were "fake" 24/7 instead of addressing and describing each example (individually) as to how they are fake, Simply saying something is fake, does not make it so, one still has to offer evidence to how it is fake. Audiences and varieties of social media as well as access to social media, still has grown in the last 5-10 years although you are likely correct that growth has not been as dramatic as it was at one time and not much, in a relative sense.

    The following certainly attests to people lying in the past and to how difficult or impossible it may be to undo a lie. With regard to "fake news" the question seems to be, which is fake, is it that major news outlets are spreading "fake" stories and are truly "enemies of the American people"or is that story about them, fake because they are reporting/spreading the truth and those they are telling the truth about, want to try to discredit those telling it, by calling their stories "fake"?

    "Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…"

    Jonathan Swift (1667-1745). Political Lying. Vol. III. Seventeenth Century. Henry Craik, ed. 1916. English Prose
    More Swift, same source:
    The superiority of his genius consists in nothing else but an inexhaustible fund of political lies, which he plentifully distributes every minute he speaks, and by an unparalleled generosity forgets, and consequently contradicts, the next half hour. He never yet considered whether any proposition were true or false, but whether it were convenient for the present minute or company to affirm or deny it;

  3. #13
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    More Swift, same source:
    Thank you and yes, does any of this bring anything or anyone in particular to mind? The irony may be in the reason given for placing that person in a particular office of power, based on their never having held such a position before.

    Perhaps the difference or "to do" about this is, that several hundred years later, one might believe humans might have learned from the or their past, if not from studying history of the past of others.

    The problem with those who may accept anyone lying on their behalf, in order to push an agenda through, suggests they are OK with lying or just have not thought about how that presents a problem when someone lies to them, rather than on their behalf. In addition, why would they trust a liar, only because that liar in a particular instance may be lying on their behalf or in such a way they feel it is to their favor, when the liar may also be lying to those that support them, in other cases of will do so, in the future.

    Honor among thieves? That question's an old one. too.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 9th June 2018 at 06:21 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    The Republican propaganda machine thrives on buzzwords. It really is just that simple.
    Well, it just could be an apt and correct description of stories that are not based in our shared reality. It differs from Yellow Journalism probably because it doesn't rise to the level of real journalism. IMO is falls into the category of Black Propaganda.
    Last edited by DanTexas; 9th June 2018 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #15
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanTexas View Post
    Well, it just could be an apt and correct description of stories that are not based in our shared reality. It differs from Yellow Journalism probably because it doesn't rise to the level of real journalism. IMO is falls into the category of Black Propaganda.
    Would you please expound and explain, as well as offer some examples and why they don't rise to the level you feel they should? I think the problem in a lot of this is that people throw out labels and constructs that are never explained, leaving people to interpret what they mean. "Black Propaganda" suggests something sinister, yet you offer nothing that would define it beyond your label and your "honest opinion". We know you or your opinion are "honest" in what way and based on what?

    Based on history and what this resulted in, the following might fall under a sinister label like "Black Propaganda" especially since the author made a point of who to direct propaganda toward, why and how most effectively to do so and the history of how his "success" with such a formula, ultimately ended for his people and his/their nation.

    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch06.html


    The above doesn't involve asking people to answer in their own words, questions about them so they have a chance to put it in their own words, instead of having others, "translate". Rather, the above stresses the importance of avoiding an intellectual discussion and repeating a simplistic slogan and aim it at the lowest common intellect of the masses, so they begin to believe it.

    Asking people to respond to a question about a situation in their own words, in a way, follows the Socratic method of teaching. Instead of telling people what to think, ask them how they come to their conclusions, based on circumstances and cause them to think in ways they may have never considered. In many, situations, students under Socratic teaching come to the same conclusions as their teachers, because they are forced to consider all the factors and come to a conclusion based on their own thinking, not on being told what that conclusion should be.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 9th June 2018 at 06:58 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    People unwilling to check sources and hearing only what they want to hear live everywhere and have lived since the beginning of humankind.
    ^^This^^
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by boontito View Post
    ^^This^^
    I agree, but I am curious to know who has suggested they don't, haven't or never did? Also whether they did or did not, how it changes what is or is not disconcerting about anyone who does so, now, or ever?

  8. #18
    #walkaway orangecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    The Republican propaganda machine thrives on buzzwords. It really is just that simple.
    Racism, sexism, #metoo.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangecat View Post
    Racism, sexism, #metoo.
    You weren't very good at this, were you?

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    Why are we acting like "fake news" is some new and unprecedentedly scary thing? It means lies, hoaxes, deliberate misinterpretation. Fabricated news. It can also be used for truthful news that we just don't like and don't wish to be true. That is a new thing how? Even wikipedia gives us historical examples dating back to Ramses the Great, Marc Anthony and Cleopatra. Yes, I know, social media, blah blah blah. That's like saying that birthday wishes are a new thing because apparently no one ever got wished "Happy Birthday" before his family and friends got a Facebook notification.
    According to Donald, he coined the term "fake news." He took a ton of grief because it sounded like he thought he invented the word fake.

    Why it matters today is because some significant portion of otherwise seemingly intelligent Americans (I didn't mean that, it just sounded polite) believe him. They believe that anything negative said about Trump is fake news. They believe the free press does nothing but lie, and that sources should be known. In other words, they know nothing, Jon Snow, and they are exceedingly proud to have believed a conman when his naked ass says "But don't you love this suit?" aka, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    Last edited by BDBoop; 9th June 2018 at 07:42 PM.
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