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Thread: New VA law (REPs)--Kids must use lockers/toilets that match their genitalia

  1. #441
    ~Swiss Mix~ justagurlinseattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    One's gender at birth is determined by physical characteristics. But is it not possible that one could be born with latent traits that cause one to identify with another gender? We've documented disconnects between one's brain and one's physical body before. A person missing a limb can still feel acute sensations of pain from that limb. Obviously the sensations are falsely generated - but to the individual, the pain is very real.

    So clearly, one's brain is not always in synch with one's physical body. The next question is whether such conditions can occur naturally, as opposed to the "amputation" example I used. I'm not an expert in the field - but I know of no reason why these conditions can't occur naturally, given the enormous range of naturally-occurring neurological traits.


    True on both counts - women lack a prostate, so prostate cancer isn't a direct concern. But all bets are off when it comes to the brain. There are no brain structures that are unique to either men or women. There are some differences in neurological behavior within the brain, but these aren't "sure" indicators of gender. A particular type of brain activity that's common to 78% of males might be labeled "typical male brain activity." But we're not talking about anything even approaching 100%.

    Which brings us back to the main issue... What happens when a male brain is naturally wired in such a way that a majority of neural activity resembles those of a female? Think about what that does to a person... They look in a mirror, and see something other than what their brain is telling them to expect. Such a disconnect would be psychologically disastrous in the long-term. So, like all humans - they adapt. Re-wiring their brain to match their body isn't an option. But changing one's physical appearance ... that's doable. Some are able to mitigate the disconnect by changing their attire. Others may need to take it a step further, with hormonal treatments, and/or surgery. But at the end, the goal is to bring their brain and their body into sufficient synchronization that they are no longer incurring psychological damage at unmanageable levels.

    Twice now, I've made reference to "psychological damage." This is something encountered by anyone who is physically built one way, and psychologically wired another way. And it's not something to be taken lightly. @Coyote can probably cite numbers, but the suicide rate of such people is much higher than the national average. And when others deliberately reference a transgender person by their birth gender, they're contributing to the problem. They're deliberately highlighting the stark contrast between what their brain is telling them they are, and what they see in the mirror. It feeds into the psychological issues, and exacerbates the problem. I cannot speak for others, but I have no desire to make anyone's psychological problems worse.



    Like I said - it's not just a matter of political correctness ... it's avoiding deliberately exacerbating someone's psychological issues. I know little about the TG community - I've never read their literature. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, I've never met a transgender person face-to-face*. However, I don't need to meet one in order to recognize that these people live with their disconnect 24/7. And I'm not the sort of person who senselessly worsens other peoples' problems merely because it would be a trivial inconvenience for me to do otherwise.



    I'm honestly not familiar with Jenner's specific situation. Frankly, I don't care. Neither her existence, nor her decisions have any bearing on me. I suspect that @Coyote would prefer that I refer to Jenner using female pronouns, so out of respect for Coyote, I'll do just that. But Jenner herself ...? No idea - not really my concern.



    Back at'cha. I've never been one for drama.

    * Astute readers may recall an earlier post in which I described seeing one of my daughter's friends, who is transgender. But given that I saw him for five seconds in a doorway while he restrained a disturbingly large pet dog, I can't say that I "met" him.

    It CAN happen NATURALLY... and it happens in 1 out of 2,000 births.
    It's called: Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is when a person who is genetically male (who has one X and one Y chromosome) is resistant to male hormones (called androgens). As a result, the person has some or all of the physical traits of a woman, but the genetic makeup of a man.

    also, Intersexed... there are a LOT of variations of Intersexed.
    Thanks from Coyote

  2. #442
    ~Swiss Mix~ justagurlinseattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    Absolutely! I have never claimed anything different - only that gender is a physical characteristic.



    Sure why not? By choice, by brain chemistry, whatever the reason is acceptable to me.

    Gender does not change however - only identity.



    Absolutely - gender does not change however.



    Yes, I think you are right and I have no problem with that. Where we are disagreeing is in personal / and impersonal language. Coyote takes everything in the first person no matter how it is intended - when discussing abstracts that do not involve individuals,
    I don't see the basis for all the hysteria. I've stated I believe in polite interactions, in person a TG male is "miss" if dress appropriate to the title. A TG male is "sir" if dressed reasonably appropriate to the title. The aspect that just annoys me is the concept that any offense is offered when referring to TG men or TG women as what they are, men who are trans-gendered or women or are trans-gendered when simply discussing the masses. Gender does not change short of reorientation surgery. Simply pulling on a pair of panties does not make someone instantly into a woman though they can and are welcome to live as a woman if that is the best thing for them. There is no insult, no discrimination, nothing that should cause as much Hysterical head slapping in this gender accurate description when used as a general description of a biological situation.



    To me it's all about pop culture and political correctness which has absolutely nothing to do with someone's psychology as an individual and all the more to do with in group psychology. I employ a trans gendered architectural engineer who is getting time off this summer to undergo gender reassignment surgery - and that is just fine, she'll have a job when she's done. I really don't see the issue - honestly truly. It's simple semantics, nothing more. It's not like I am using some vile racial term - just biologically correct gender identification in an abstract discussion.



    In short you are simply agreeing join in on political correctness according to Coyote. (edit) That is ok, but why should her version of PC affect me or anyone else provided that polite interactions are observed, all laws are followed and people are not discriminated againsr.




    (sorry, I didn't realize I had written a NOVEL)



    I will start by saying.... Trans People have a BIRTH DEFECT... YES.. that is RIGHT.. It's a BIRTH defect.

    This is how many DOCTORS view this... They MIGHT know a thing or 2 more than us here on PH..
    But.. yes.. Transgendered is a BIRTH DEFECT...
    ONE that is pretty bad.. and that claims MANY LIVES due to people REFUSING to listen and understand
    what it means to be transgender ..
    too MANY people view trans as a CHOICE.. It's NOT.

    They DON'T have a choice. NO more choice than I had, being a girl, or being born with both legs.

    There are MANY studies on this.. there is a LOT of info out there on this.
    DOCTORS have determined that trans is a REAL MEDICAL condition.
    This is NOT a mental health issue. It is a TRUE medical issue.


    YOU might not think it is a slur.. it seems harmless to you... But, you have been told, OVER and OVER again, that it is.
    Look how many people get upset, when somebody uses the word reta*ded?

    It is offensive to people these days.. so, would you call your friends CHILD a Ret**d?
    Of course you wouldn't... that would mean that you were a terribly unkind and insensitive
    person... Which, I KNOW you are not.


    How would you feel, if people started calling you a WHITE Woman?

    You would not like it much... and I would NOT blame you... especially if it was just to TAUNT you.
    MY fur would be in a major FLUFF if somebody did that to you.
    or if somebody made fun of you, or was intentionally calling you or OTHERS like you,
    names that you did not like... I would be writing this EXACT same post.

    What I don't UNDERSTAND... is WHAT is so difficult about just using the gender pronoun a
    person PREFERS?

    When you meet somebody, and their name is Jim.. You don't call them Kevin... or DO YOU?

    WHY is it so hard to just call Jenner a SHE, HER... etc.. etc... OR, just JENNER, why the need to call Caitlyn
    by her old name Bruce or by male pronouns?

    WHY, if you know that it is HURTING a persons feelings, can't you just use a different WORD?

    is it REALLY that inconvenient to use a different WORD? They have the roughly the same number of letters...
    so, it is NOT, that it is just easier to type HIM, and HE.

    This is NOT about changing anybody's mind.. this is NOT about being PC.. It is just about
    being POLITE to the person you are interacting with.
    again... you wouldn't call a friends child a ret@rd.. that would be very disrespectful
    not to mention VERY hurtful.

    again... like I pointed out above... You are talking to somebody who has a BIRTH DEFECT..

    Why are the words HER.. She.. female... woman .. lady.. girl.... etc.. etc.. so HARD for some
    of you to use?

    This is NOT IMPOSING on you... it takes VERY LITTLE effort to do this..

    You don't even have to BELIEVE this stuff.. I just don't see why it is hard to call them and others
    like them, by their preferred name or gender pronoun.



    again... YOU KNOW that by using the male pronouns, you are REALLY hurting somebody's FEELINGS...
    a person who is TRYING to be POLITE to you..
    a person has already said, COUNTLESS times, that it HURTS HER feelings.


    and again... This is NOT about being PC... it is about being POLITE and RESPECTFUL.
    just like you would be polite and respectful to ANYBODY who has a Birth Defect.

    If people can't do that, why would they continue to talk, or reply? is this to taunt and humiliate?
    Cuz, fact is, regardless of whether it is intentional... that is the end result.

    I would HOPE it's NOT intentional... and I don't think it is... But, damn.. this is just so LITTLE to ask of a person,
    and I don't get WHY it is so difficult.


    Trans people have it REALLLLY FUCKING HARD... MANY attempt suicide.. many are successful in committing suicide.

    WHY would you want to fuck with somebody's FEELINGS like this?

    You don't think it is HARD ENOUGH for Coyote to talk about this with y'all on an open forum

    ONLY so have you and a few others can CONTINUOUSLY HUMILIATE her and verbally drive it into her, that
    YOU don't care what she wants to be called.. or what OTHER trans should be called, you will call Coyote and/ or
    other trans people whatever you want or feel like?
    and saying to her, that no matter what, she is NEVER REALLY going to be a woman... That is just MEAN.
    Would you say to a person born with no legs.. " You know, you are NEVER going to have REAL legs..."

    Of course you wouldn't.

    So, I don't know why you would do it to Coyote.


    here is some VERY GOOD info on this..
    It explains how the brain develops and how Transgender will occur in the womb. It's
    very interesting and MIGHT help you to understand that this is a Birth Defect.



    The Transgender Brain | Transas City


    Brain Development

    Gender identity was once thought of as being entirely a social construct, with most of our gender formation occurring between the ages of 1-4. (Bao, Gooren 2006) In the 21st century, the general thought is that gender identity is programmed at birth, although social factors can potentially overwhelm this programming. One tragic example is the “John-Joan-John” case, where a boy who lost his penis at 8 months was surgically turned into a girl, including the administration of estrogens and receiving psychological counseling. Although raised a girl all her life, she had the unshakeable feeling that she was in fact a boy. She transitioned back to male at age 14, and attempted to live as a male, but eventually, due to financial instability and a failing marriage, committed suicide. (Bao)

    It’s common to hear the phrase “all babies start out female, and it’s only later that they become male,” and this is at least partially true. In fact, the influence of testosterone on a fetus has been described as a defeminization process, changing a fetus which was essentially predestined to be female into male. (Gooren, 2006) Testosterone production and the conversion of some testosterone to dihydrotestosterone between weeks 6 and 12 of pregnancy is critical for the initial development of male features, such as the penis, prostate gland, and scrotum. (Bao) In the absence of these male hormones, female genitalia develop instead. Brain development, however, does not occur in earnest until the second half of the pregnancy term, after the genitals have been developed, and the continued presence of male hormones results in a brain which has subtle, but critical physical differences from the female brain. (Bao)

    The fact that the brain and the genitals develop at different times in the womb mean that a misalignment between the genitals and brain may develop, leading to either an intersex condition, or a transgender individual.

    Example 1: Women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) develop bodies which are almost entirely female, and they tend to be sexually oriented towards men – despite having an XY karyotype. (Bao, Gooren 2006) Often, there is no indication the child is anything but female until surgery or an x-ray reveals the presence of undescended testes. (Gooren, 2006)

    Example 2: Either a 5α-reductase-2 or a 17β-hydroxy-steroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency will prevent the formation of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone, which will result in an XY karyotype baby girl with a large clitoris. However, when puberty arrives the girl will discover to her alarm that her clitoris grows significantly, her testes descend, and she will begin to take on masculine features. (Bao, Gooren 2006) Even though children with these birth defects are raised as girls, about 60% will become heterosexual males. (Bao) A Brazilian study found that of 25 5α-reductase-2 affected babies who were raised as girls, 13 changed their gender identity to male after puberty. (Gooren, 2006) Another study found that about 50% of 17β-hydroxy-steroid dehydrogenase-3 affected babies changed their gender identity back to male at puberty. (Gooren, 2006) What these results indicate to us is that testosterone likely more directly impacts the organization of the fetal brain than dihydrotestosterone. (Bao)
    Thanks from Coyote, HayJenn and cpicturetaker12

  3. #443
    ~Swiss Mix~ justagurlinseattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    First, hermaphroditism is a medical term, so, you can just shut up with your PC social justice bullshit.

    Second, you prove my point that these are mutations.


    NOBODY said it wasn't a mutation.. Fighting with yourself?

    I had NO NEED to prove your point... since I wasn't disagreeing with
    what you said about it being mutations.
    I simply said that mutations happen more often than people think.



    Don't Call Them Hermaphrodites - The Daily Beast


    Don't Call Them Hermaphrodites


    They prefer the term "intersex."
    And now that a South African track star has thrust them into the spotlight, this surprisingly large minority group thinks their Stonewall moment just may have arrived.

    When Caitlin Childs first heard about South African track star Caster Semenya, who was asked to submit to a gender-verification test after her gold-medal win at the World Athletics Championships in Berlin last month, she braced herself for the deluge of ill-informed media analysis. She didn’t have to wait very long.

    “There was a lot of dehumanizing language tossed around about Semenya,” Caitlin says. “The word hermaphrodite was used a lot, which is pretty offensive. It was upsetting to see all of these people pop up who seem to think they have the right to speculate about what somebody else’s body looks like.”

    “I live a very regular life. I have kids. I’m a Realtor. It’s a wonderful thing... that our genitals are not placed on our foreheads.”


    The intersex-rights movement seeks the same things most civil-rights struggles seek: mainstream acceptance, equality under the law, the right to safely be “out.” And, oh yeah: They don’t want to be called “hermaphrodites.”

    “The term ‘hermaphrodite’ is stigmatizing and confusing,” says Alice Domurat Dreger, a professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics at Northwestern University who is cited regularly by intersex individuals and advocates. “It usually suggests to people that someone has all the organs of males and females—but that is not physically possible. The medical profession came to a consensus about three years ago to get rid of all terms based on the root ‘hermaphrodite’ (including ‘pseudo-hermaphrodite’) because they are stigmatizing and confusing.”
    Last edited by justagurlinseattle; 21st January 2016 at 07:04 PM.

  4. #444
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    ......

    Really? You couldn't tell what kind of name that is? That is a fabric. That is a drag queen's name.

    Things were different back then. You could get away with things as a "performance" that were outright dangerous to try to pull off 24/7.

    That said, it's hard to say how they really felt, as you probably didn't have enough time with them to come to know them all that well.

    He was a transvestite.

    Edit: Wait, what? Is this a real person you know/have met? Or an actor? I'm confused.
    A character in a movie (true story) and that is what I was saying - he was a transvestite.
    Thanks from Coyote

  5. #445
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    Problematic language.

    I am female. I have breasts. They are biological in nature. Not silicone. I can lactate.

    I am female.

    The preferred term (PC, respectful, whatever you want to call it) is AMAB (Assigned Male At Birth).

    Half of you (general you not you Sassy) can't even get Caitlyn's name and gender correct, so I have little hope that you will educate yourselves enough to use terminology that would actually facilitate a real dialog.
    Actually I was focusing on genitals in that q. And it's not fair to accuse me of seeing people as walking genitals. It's just a fact that most straight women like penises for sex. Lots of jokes are made by women (pissed off at men) that if they didn't like dick they'd be a lesbian.

  6. #446
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    New VA law (REPs)--Kids must use lockers/toilets that match their genitalia

    Quote Originally Posted by justagurlinseattle View Post
    NOBODY said it wasn't a mutation.. Fighting with yourself?

    I had NO NEED to prove your point... since I wasn't disagreeing with
    what you said about it being mutations.
    I simply said that mutations happen more often than people think.



    Don't Call Them Hermaphrodites - The Daily Beast
    Aww... The social justice warriors don't like medical terms. Fuck them. (There are lots of types of hermaphroditism)

    Well, the point was made that there's "xx or XY, and other" I said others are all mutations. You seemed to disagree and started listing mutations as though they weren't (when context is accounted for), so, not sure why you were arguing,

  7. #447
    ~Standing My Ground~ Sassy's Avatar
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    mmmmmmmm I don't like Jenner but I don't think he has to change his parts to present as a woman. A lot of people regret the surgery. They have that phantom limb thing. I don't think one has to do that to be a 'real' Trans.

  8. #448
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    Coyote, back to the original topic: I am confused because 2-3 days ago you said that due to posts by e, JAG, and Syrenn you saw the POV of the cis girls in schools but then you went right back to how they don't matter when put up against the TG.

  9. #449
    ~Swiss Mix~ justagurlinseattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmanmcfly View Post
    Aww... The social justice warriors don't like medical terms. Fuck them. (There are lots of types of hermaphroditism)

    Well, the point was made that there's "xx or XY, and other" I said others are all mutations. You seemed to disagree and started listing mutations as though they weren't (when context is accounted for), so, not sure why you were arguing,

    Thanks from goldendog

  10. #450
    ~Swiss Mix~ justagurlinseattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassy View Post
    Coyote, back to the original topic: I am confused because 2-3 days ago you said that due to posts by e, JAG, and Syrenn you saw the POV of the cis girls in schools but then you went right back to how they don't matter when put up against the TG.

    No I didn't... Coyote and I were discussing something else.. that does NOT mean I changed my mind.

    I am of the opinion that it is MORE complicated than just black and white.

    Schools in this instance would be best served by dealing with this Locally...
    and it would have to be a compromise that would suit everyone .. and would NOT
    endanger the Trans kid...
    If the girls in each class want to do this by PRIVATE vote.. that would be best.

    this is also because NOT all Trans want to use the bathroom and locker rooms in school of their
    Current gender.

    My daughters school has co-ed bathrooms.. and they have a locker room for other stuff.

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