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Thread: Erdogan winning Turkish referendum

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Well here is the thing. Turkey is part of NATO and they are our ally. If we don't trust them or feel they are a danger or a dictatorship, why the hell are they still in NATO? As long as they are a member it should be assumed that other allies call them and congratulate them or ask their advice on issues. Otherwise, kick them out. Cant have it both ways.
    None of these reforms sound that ominous to me anyway.

    Having both a President and a Prime Minister has always seemed redundant to me. Executives usually have broad powers in appointing ministers and judges anyway. That's not that uncommon.

    I'm not sure what the political angle is on Turkey - but there seems to be some kind of weird leftist assault on the country. Perhaps since Russia didn't work out as the liberal democrat's scapegoat to paint Trump as some sinister foreign agent Turkey might be their next target in that regard. That's only thing I can figure here. So keep an eye out for comments trying to make out like Trump is Erdogan's puppet. This might be their new conspiracy theory in the works.

    Either way - NATO is a strategic alliance. It's not a moral alliance.

    I'm all for creating some kind of new alliance that shares the same kind of democratic and moral principles that we do. But NATO isn't the place to do that. It doesn't have the structure in place for it.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 20th April 2017 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #32
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    None of these reforms sound that ominous to me anyway.

    Having both a President and a Prime Minister has always seemed redundant to me.
    We have a president and a chancellor. The Brits have a prime minister and a Queen. Nothing what's unusual. But this is not the problem. Turkey needs indeed a new constitution on lots of reasons. For example is it not compatible with a democracy to have something like the ministery "Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı". The leader of this Organisation (100,000 employees) controls everything what has to do with religion in Turkey. Erdogan is now something like the pope and emperor of Turkey. But the real pope and the real emperor had been elected in the European history - but who will install the next "Erdogan" of "Erdogania"? ¿Erdogan?

    Executives usually have broad powers in appointing ministers and judges anyway. That's not that uncommon.
    But it's uncommon to have judges and a police who don't care about murder - for example murder on journalists. And it's uncommon to arrest journalists because they are doing just simple their job.

    I'm not sure what the political angle is on Turkey - but there seems to be some kind of weird leftist assault on the country.
    No. This has nothing to do with a left wing vs right wing disagreement of the people who believe in democracy.

    Perhaps since Russia didn't work out as the liberal democrat's scapegoat to paint Trump as some sinister foreign agent Turkey might be their next target in that regard. That's only thing I can figure here. So keep an eye out for comments trying to make out like Trump is Erdogan's puppet. This might be their new conspiracy theory in the works.

    Either way - NATO is a strategic alliance. It's not a moral alliance.
    So do you think the Nato is an amoral alliance? Would this not be a good reason to eliminate the NATO? The problem we are discussing about is a "red line"-problem. For example: In case Turkey introduces death penalty then the EU will have to stop the accession negotiations with Turkey - otherwise the EU loses authenticity. What are the US-American red lines? Knows this your president and avoids he only unimportant power games - or thinks he really Turkey is on a good way?

    I'm all for creating some kind of new alliance that shares the same kind of democratic and moral principles that we do.
    I would not know why Turkey should not share our moral principles or stay to be a democracy. The worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship.

    But NATO isn't the place to do that. It doesn't have the structure in place for it.
    I don't think the most soldiers of the NATO see themselves as dishonorable persons. If a Turkish NATO-soldier likes not to follow the order of Erdogan to come home to Turkey, then I hope this soldier is save everywhere in all NATO-states. Erdogan has arrested Turkish NATO-soldiers without any reason to do so. What he says about the military coup in Turkey is not verifiable from our secret services.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 21st April 2017 at 12:54 AM.

  3. #33
    Polemicist Supremum Monk-Eye's Avatar
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    Cautioning Against Blinding Trusts Approach

    " Cautioning Against Blinding Trusts Approach "

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    We have a president and a chancellor. The Brits have a prime minister and a Queen. Nothing what's unusual. But this is not the problem. Turkey needs indeed a new constitution on lots of reasons. For example is it not compatible with a democracy to have something like the ministery "Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı". The leader of this Organisation (100,000 employees) controls everything what has to do with religion in Turkey. Erdogan is now something like the pope and emperor of Turkey. But the real pope and the real emperor had been elected in the European history - but who will install the next "Erdogan" of "Erdogania"? ¿Erdogan?
    One should be very suspicious of ear dog again ( erdogan ) sail a fists ( salafi ) whose underlay for ascetic fascism grumbles for more history where fictional ishmaelism implements its edicts against non aggression principles of individualism .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism#Populism
    Populism (Turkish: halkçılık) is defined as a social revolution aimed to transfer the political power to citizenship. Kemalist populism differs from the Western understanding of the term populism. In Western European culture the construct Populism is a political doctrine where one sides with "the people" against "the elites". In the Ottoman Society "the people" (the correct term for the period was "subjects") side (submits) to autocracy (Ottoman Dynasty), theocracy (Caliphate) and feudalism (tribal leaders). Kemalism moved the orientation of political power towards the best interest of the "general public" (general public = citizens of the country, common citizens, citizenship).


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...igious_Affairs
    In Turkey, the Presidency of Religious Affairs (Turkish: Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı also Religious Affairs Directorate, and normally referred to simply as the Diyanet) is an official state institution established in 1924 in article 136 of the Constitution of Turkey by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey as a successor to the Sheikh ul-Islam after the abolition of the Ottoman Caliphate.[1]

    As specified by law, the duties of the Diyanet are “to execute the works concerning the beliefs, worship, and ethics of Islam, enlighten the public about their religion, and administer the sacred worshiping places”.[2] The Diyanet drafts a weekly sermon delivered at the nation’s 85,000 mosques and more than 2,000 mosques abroad that function under the directorate. It provides Quranic education for children and trains and employs all of Turkey’s imams, who are technically considered civil servants.[3]

    According to some observers (David Lepeska, Svante Cornell), since the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power in 2002, the mission of the Diyanet has changed – from one of exercising state oversight over religious affairs and ensuring that religion did not challenge the Turkish republic’s "ostensibly secular identity", to that of promoting mainstream Hanafi Sunni Islam, "a conservative lifestyle at home, and projecting "Turkish Islam abroad".[5]



    * Conflicted Puritanical Conflagration *

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...-casts-diyanet
    Turkish media predicted that the move presaged a “religious diplomatic offensive,” as Ankara sought to outflank big-spending Saudi Arabia as the leader of Sunni Islam and assist Muslim-minority communities in the West. Just last week, Davutoglu said that Turkish Islam could be “an antidote” to the Islamic State of Syria and Iraq (ISIS) and that he had assigned the Diyanet the “mission” to battle the Middle East’s sectarian conflicts.

    Until recently, the Diyanet’s expanded scope and ambition had met with little complaint within Turkey, mainly because Turkish law stipulates that a political party that questions whether the Diyanet should exist can be dissolved.

    The three-year-old Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP) apparently sees the government’s promotion of a conservative, Sunni Islam as problematic enough, in a purportedly secular state, to risk extinction. In its election manifesto, released in late April, the party states that, should it win, “The Diyanet will be abolished, the state will take its hands out of the area of religion and belief.” Responding a few days later in a speech to industrialists, Erdogan issued a warning: “Those who promise to abolish the Diyanet, it is clear what kind of a lesson our nation will teach them.”



    * Sifting Shifting Rides *

    Is ear dog again stepping forward in support of secular government against theocracies through support for assad , or is ear dog again simply vying for religious hegemony against saudis funded mentalists seeking to implement theocracy in syria and everywhere at all costs ?

    Why Islamists are no longer Erdogan?s favorites
    Erdogan’s silent abandonment of the Syrian revolution by cozying up with Russia and accepting to live with the Assad regime also disillusioned some Islamists who have been eager to see a post-Assad Syria.


    Why Islamists are no longer Erdogan?s favorites
    Does this mean that Turkey’s Islamists are no longer supporting Erdogan? No, that would be a misleading conclusion. Most Islamists still support the Erdogan regime, at least publicly, and the hard-core pro-Erdogan propaganda machine includes some Islamists as well. But the same propaganda machine also includes some overtly secular people — former Marxists, nationalists, mere opportunists, some Kurds and even an Armenian. Their common ground is not Islamism, but Erdoganism, which is now an ideological position of its own.

    The tragedy of these disillusioned Turkish Islamists is that they don’t have much of an option. All their life, from jobs to friends to social network, is within the conservative-Islamic camp of Turkey, which is today almost totally dominated by Erdogan and his enthusiasts. That is why their timid criticisms of the current regime target hard-core Erdoganists — especially the new recruits with a secular background — but never Erdogan himself. They act as if “the Chief” is surrounded by some bad people, and that is the only problem at hand.

    Erdoganism seems to have two simple rules for itself: First, Erdogan is always right. Second, all critics and dissidents of Erdogan are unpatriotic people, who knowingly or unknowingly serve the evil Western powers that conspire against Turkey. All the rest follow from these two axioms.


    Erdogan's Empathy for Morsi - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
    Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) government in Ankara has thrown its full support behind the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt because Erdogan sees a bit of the AKP in the Brotherhood.

    The AKP, too, was once upon a time shunned as being an Islamist party. Since then, the party has come a long way. When the Turkish courts shut down the AKP's predecessor, the Welfare Party (RP), in 1998, Erdogan and other AKP leaders broke away from that movement, reforming and jettisoning the RP's anti-democratic rhetoric. This gave the AKP credibility in the eyes of the common Turks, and coupled with the 2001 economic crisis in the country, which discredited the parties in the political center, allowed the AKP to become the country's most popular political party.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi

  4. #34
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk-Eye View Post
    " Cautioning Against Blinding Trusts Approach "

    * Paving Pendulum Roads Four Others *



    One should be very suspicious of ear dog again ( erdogan )
    "Erdogan" (ɛrdoˈan) is a completely normal name in Turkey, like for example "Smith" in the USA.

    sail a fists ( salafi ) whose underlay for ascetic fascism grumbles for more history where fictional ishmaelism implements its edicts against non aggression principles of individualism .


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism#Populism


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...igious_Affairs



    * Conflicted Puritanical Conflagration *

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...-casts-diyanet



    * Sifting Shifting Rides *

    Is ear dog again stepping forward in support of secular government against theocracies through support for assad , or is ear dog again simply vying for religious hegemony against saudis funded mentalists seeking to implement theocracy in syria and everywhere at all costs ?

    Why Islamists are no longer Erdogan?s favorites


    Why Islamists are no longer Erdogan?s favorites


    Erdogan's Empathy for Morsi - The Washington Institute for Near East Policy


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi
    Can you explain me in simple words what you like to express here? Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - the founder of the modern state Turkey - was convinced Turkeys future is in the western world. Since about a hundred years "we" are working to try to make this inspiration to come true. Now we have to understand that a kind of Turkish blood mythology combined with the universal excuse "L'enfer, c'est les autres." destroys the way of Turkey into a calculable and stable future. One problem is for example that the USA has also an extreme nationalism ("America first"="USA only") and makes the same mistake to try make others responsible for the own wrong decision in the past. Similar is it in England ...

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 22nd April 2017 at 09:52 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    We have a president and a chancellor. The Brits have a prime minister and a Queen. Nothing what's unusual. But this is not the problem. Turkey needs indeed a new constitution on lots of reasons. For example is it not compatible with a democracy to have something like the ministery "Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı". The leader of this Organisation (100,000 employees) controls everything what has to do with religion in Turkey. Erdogan is now something like the pope and emperor of Turkey. But the real pope and the real emperor had been elected in the European history - but who will install the next "Erdogan" of "Erdogania"? ¿Erdogan?



    But it's uncommon to have judges and a police who don't care about murder - for example murder on journalists. And it's uncommon to arrest journalists because they are doing just simple their job.



    No. This has nothing to do with a left wing vs right wing disagreement of the people who believe in democracy.



    So do you think the Nato is an amoral alliance? Would this not be a good reason to eliminate the NATO? The problem we are discussing about is a "red line"-problem. For example: In case Turkey introduces death penalty then the EU will have to stop the accession negotiations with Turkey - otherwise the EU loses authenticity. What are the US-American red lines? Knows this your president and avoids he only unimportant power games - or thinks he really Turkey is on a good way?



    I would not know why Turkey should not share our moral principles or stay to be a democracy. The worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship.



    I don't think the most soldiers of the NATO see themselves as dishonorable persons. If a Turkish NATO-soldier likes not to follow the order of Erdogan to come home to Turkey, then I hope this soldier is save everywhere in all NATO-states. Erdogan has arrested Turkish NATO-soldiers without any reason to do so. What he says about the military coup in Turkey is not verifiable from our secret services.

    How is removing the position of Prime Minister and allowing the President more authority to appoint judges and ministers getting rid of democracy?

    If Erdogan was trying to usurp the country I could understand the concern. But as far as I can tell - all he's doing is initiating some reasonable reforms via a referendum people can vote on. Sounds like democracy in action to me.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    More: Turkey referendum: Erdogan camp set to win after most votes counted - BBC News

    Here is, apparently, how Turks living in Europe voted


    Erdogan is turning himself into a dictator, no better than Putin. How long will he be allowed to remain in NATO???
    How much you wanna bet the shitstain rigged the vote in his favor?

  7. #37
    Junior Member zaangalewa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    How is removing the position of Prime Minister and allowing the President more authority to appoint judges and ministers getting rid of democracy?
    Erdogan is not an authority - he's an idiot speaking hateful bullshit, that's all. He destroyed the Turkish system of justice, the Turkish police and the Turkish army, the Turkish system of education, the Turkish economy, the Turkish universities, the Turkish parliament, ... . The Turkish prisons are full of innocent people. The autocratic leader Erdogan supports the IS and fights against the Kurds. And soon he will start to kill hundred thousands of the own people, if no one takes care any longer and everyone continues to think to be stupid is a virtue.

    If Erdogan was trying to usurp the country I could understand the concern. But as far as I can tell - all he's doing is initiating some reasonable reforms via a referendum people can vote on. Sounds like democracy in action to me.
    Where do you live? ... Proxima Centauri?

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 23rd April 2017 at 11:22 PM.

  8. #38
    Polemicist Supremum Monk-Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedminator View Post
    Democracy seems to be working fine in Indonesia.. which also happens to be the most populous Muslim-majority country.
    Indonesians are not lineal descendants of ishmael within hejaz , they are just buffoons and punks of arab cultural stupidity .

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/1a474e0...hok-found.html
    (CNN)Jakarta governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, commonly known as Ahok, has been sentenced to two years in prison, after being found guilty of blasphemy in a trial seen as a test of Indonesia's religious tolerance. In April, prosecutors called for the blasphemy counts to be dropped in exchange for a lesser charge of "spreading hate," but the judges appear to have ignored that recommendation. The Jakarta governor denied the charges. Ahok quoted a verse from the Quran to prove to his supporters that there were no restrictions on Muslims voting for a non-Muslim politician.

  9. #39
    Polemicist Supremum Monk-Eye's Avatar
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    Little ta yip yap ear dog again is a typical fictional ishmaelism ass clown .

    Sad part is frump is a flip flop coward who gets off stroking the ego of the biggest bidder .

    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    Erdogan is not an authority - he's an idiot speaking hateful bullshit, that's all. He destroyed the Turkish system of justice, the Turkish police and the Turkish army, the Turkish system of education, the Turkish economy, the Turkish universities, the Turkish parliament, ... . The Turkish prisons are full of innocent people. The autocratic leader Erdogan supports the IS and fights against the Kurds. And soon he will start to kill hundred thousands of the own people, if no one takes care any longer and everyone continues to think to be stupid is a virtue.

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