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Thread: Wolf urges Congress to fund health benefits for coal miners

  1. #41
    RNG
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    I'm confused here. Some are blaming the union for mismanaging the pension fund. That suggest to me that their pension plan was a defined contribution type run by the union. Some are arguing that the company should be responsible but shirked that responsibility by declaring bankruptcy. That would be a defined benefit type managed by the company.

    Which one was it?

  2. #42
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    Wolf urges Congress to fund health benefits for coal miners

    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    It is when bankruptcy court lets mine operators to offload obligations.
    That's not the issue here.

    What would you like sick, older miners to do?
    Sick, older, union pensioner miners? Whatever they want. The same things that sick, older, nonunion non-miners do.

    They put their faith in the union to effectively manage their money and entitlements for them. Turns out that was a bad gamble on their part. Bad gambles don't pay out.

    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Responsibility for the retirees’ health plans has increasingly shifted to the federal government
    Not in this case. Hence the begging for a bailout.

    as struggling coal companies have shed their liabilities in bankruptcy court.
    When there are no assets to cover the liabilities, yeah that's what happens when things go bankrupt. The liabilities go away.

    The benefits can easily mean the difference between a middle-class retirement and economic hardship, since many retired miners are too young to qualify for Medicare.
    The union administered the pension fund and failed to do what was necessary to ensure the benefits would be funded. Therefore the benefits will not be there.

    There are other miners out there Who weren't in any union. They're not getting any bailout, even if this bill passed.

    And there are other aging poor people with medical conditions who have financial problems too. They don't get any special bailout money.

    This is a failed union with a failed pension begging for special bailout money. Other failed union pensions are going belly up sooner than this particular one will, and they aren't being considered for special bailout money either. This union wants special treatment and to be expedited to the top of the list to get federal bailout money to cover up for the union's failure to adequately administer the pension.

    Too bad.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That's not the issue here.



    Sick, older, union pensioner miners? Whatever they want. The same things that sick, older, nonunion non-miners do.

    They put their faith in the union to effectively manage their money and entitlements for them. Turns out that was a bad gamble on their part. Bad gambles don't pay out.



    Not in this case. Hence the begging for a bailout.



    When there are no assets to cover the liabilities, yeah that's what happens when things go bankrupt. The liabilities go away.



    The union administered the pension fund and failed to do what was necessary to ensure the benefits would be funded. Therefore the benefits will not be there.

    There are other miners out there Who weren't in any union. They're not getting any bailout, even if this bill passed.

    And there are other aging poor people with medical conditions who have financial problems too. They don't get any special bailout money.

    This is a failed union with a failed pension begging for special bailout money. Other failed union pensions are going belly up sooner than this particular one will, and they aren't being considered for special bailout money either. This union wants special treatment and to be expedited to the top of the list to get federal bailout money to cover up for the union's failure to adequately administer the pension.

    Too bad.
    Your not getting it. MM promised these coal miners he would take care of them. And it looks like he is going to break that promise.

    And yes, many of them are on Medicare - but it doesn't come close to paying for all the cost.

    And it's a pretty crappy thing to do. Coal miners are subjected to all kinds of things on the job that negatively impact their health more than probably any other job out there.

    As a taxpayer, I'm willing to pay to see them get the health care that they DESERVE. I don't give two craps about what the Union did or did not do.
    Thanks from labrea

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Your not getting it. MM promised these coal miners he would take care of them. And it looks like he is going to break that promise.
    Mitch McConnell? He wasn't the keeper of the pension. It wasn't his promise to make. I don't care what some politician "promised." They promise stupid things all the time that they have no intention or ability to "keep" or not keep.

    And yes, many of them are on Medicare - but it doesn't come close to paying for all the cost.
    Tons of millions are on Medicare. If Medicare doesn't do a good enough job in your opinion, why aren't you whining about how bad all Medicare beneficiaries have it? Why such preferential treatment for this particular group of UNIONIZED miners? There are hundreds of other failing union-administered pensions. Should they all get free ride bailout money too? This creates a moral hazard. There's no point even trying to adequately manage a pension fund when you can just let it fail and get FedGov to bail it out.

    And it's a pretty crappy thing to do.
    No, bailing out the union is the crappy thing to do.

    Coal miners are subjected to all kinds of things on the job that negatively impact their health more than probably any other job out there.
    That doesn't entitle this union to taxpayer money to cover for its failure.

    As a taxpayer, I'm willing to pay to see them get the health care that they DESERVE.
    Your decision as to what you feel like they deserve is irrelevant. Nothing is owed to this union or its members by the taxpayer.

    I don't give two craps about what the Union did or did not do.
    Neither does the union, clearly. Yours is a model of systemic immorality and irresponsibility in the stewardship of pooled funds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Mitch McConnell? He wasn't the keeper of the pension. It wasn't his promise to make. I don't care what some politician "promised." They promise stupid things all the time that they have no intention or ability to "keep" or not keep.



    Tons of millions are on Medicare. If Medicare doesn't do a good enough job in your opinion, why aren't you whining about how bad all Medicare beneficiaries have it? Why such preferential treatment for this particular group of UNIONIZED miners? There are hundreds of other failing union-administered pensions. Should they all get free ride bailout money too? This creates a moral hazard. There's no point even trying to adequately manage a pension fund when you can just let it fail and get FedGov to bail it out.



    No, bailing out the union is the crappy thing to do.



    That doesn't entitle this union to taxpayer money to cover for its failure.



    Your decision as to what you feel like they deserve is irrelevant. Nothing is owed to this union or its members by the taxpayer.



    Neither does the union, clearly. Yours is a model of systemic immorality and irresponsibility in the stewardship of pooled funds.
    Well the reality is that MM just lost some of his most staunch supporters by screwing them over. I doubt these people even care about what role McConnell plays in all of this. They just see someone who pandered to them during the election and now he is throwing them under the bus.
    Thanks from labrea

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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Well the reality is that MM just lost some of his most staunch supporters by screwing them over.
    Couldn't care less. His desire for their shouldn't require special treatment for this particular union's employees/retirees. Congress should railroad this. Don't care what happens to "MM" as a result. It's a bad bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That's not the issue here.

    Sick, older, union pensioner miners? Whatever they want. The same things that sick, older, nonunion non-miners do.

    They put their faith in the union to effectively manage their money and entitlements for them. Turns out that was a bad gamble on their part. Bad gambles don't pay out.

    Not in this case. Hence the begging for a bailout.

    When there are no assets to cover the liabilities, yeah that's what happens when things go bankrupt. The liabilities go away.

    The union administered the pension fund and failed to do what was necessary to ensure the benefits would be funded. Therefore the benefits will not be there.

    There are other miners out there Who weren't in any union. They're not getting any bailout, even if this bill passed.

    And there are other aging poor people with medical conditions who have financial problems too. They don't get any special bailout money.

    This is a failed union with a failed pension begging for special bailout money. Other failed union pensions are going belly up sooner than this particular one will, and they aren't being considered for special bailout money either. This union wants special treatment and to be expedited to the top of the list to get federal bailout money to cover up for the union's failure to adequately administer the pension.

    Too bad.
    The union got caught in the Great Recession just like lots of smart people, and lost money just like a lot of smart people, and mine operators stopped making payments promised because the bankruptcy court said they could.

    The miners did nothing wrong, they carried out their end of the bargain in good faith. If we bail out bankers who took stupid risks with other people's money, we damn well can bail out miners who did nothing wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Couldn't care less. His desire for their shouldn't require special treatment for this particular union's employees/retirees. Congress should railroad this. Don't care what happens to "MM" as a result. It's a bad bill.
    It is attitudes like yours that make me feel like I don't want to be part of where this country is headed.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Couldn't care less. His desire for their shouldn't require special treatment for this particular union's employees/retirees. Congress should railroad this. Don't care what happens to "MM" as a result. It's a bad bill.
    The country benefited from the work miners risked their lives to do, if the country can't see its way clear to return the favor now when miners need help, then we will destroy ourselves with our own shortsighted selfishness.

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    Jeez, I thought you meant an actual wolf

    lol

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