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Thread: "Transgender Chechen" comes forward (in US)

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    "Transgender Chechen" comes forward (in US)

    A woman calling herself Chechnya’s “first transgender person” has come forward saying she fled illegally last year to the United States, after facing persecution in Russia. The independent TV station Dozhd says it verified the transgender woman’s identity through human rights workers who helped her escape Russia.

    Asking to be identified as “Leila,” the woman says she underwent sex reassignment surgery in the mid-2000s, after studying in Chechnya and working in the Chechen government. Leila says she sometimes even met Ramzan Kadyrov, the republic’s controversial, devout Muslim leader.

    After moving to Moscow, Leila says fellow Chechens started harassing her. Meanwhile, back home, unknown med visited her parents and informed them that they must kill her, or someone else would. In October 2015, a man did try to kill Leila in downtown Moscow, stabbing her twice in the chest with a knife. But Leila survived.
    Detained, Tortured, Killed: How Chechnya Cracked Down on Gays

    She says the Moscow police ignored her reports that someone was trying to hurt her. Officers apparently told her, “Either screw off to Europe, or we’ll escort you back to Chechnya ourselves.”

    After the murder attempt, Leila moved to a new apartment, stayed hidden, and eventually decided to emigrate to Argentina, later deciding on the U.S., instead. In 2016, she says she illegally crossed from Mexico into the United States, where she lives today as an illegal immigrant.

    More than 100 gay men in Chechnya have reportedly been kept in secret prisons, tortured, and forced to denounce other gay men. Novaya Gazeta, Radio Liberty, Meduza, and The Guardian have independently corroborated the mass crackdown. Local authorities, however, have denied these accusations, insisting implausibly that there are no gays in Chechnya. President Putin has be reluctant to comment publicly on the allegations.
    Chechnya's ‘First Transgender Woman’ Comes Forward

    This is all fucking surreal, to me... You have to be from Caucasus, to understand this, and maybe it does speak to my own prejudices and preconceptions formed by my upbringing there, in Caucasus and in Russia in general, that I am having a hard time even imagining a transgender Chechen. Or even a gay Chechen, for that matter... Something like this, over there, you can't even TALK about it...

    It is a society (Caucasus in general and Chechnya especially), with VERY hard, strict, entrenched gender roles and expectations. Women are wives and mothers. Men are workers and protectors. And warriors, above all. Caucasus is a very macho, masculine, manly place. For thousands of years it was populated by all these warrior tribes, Dargins, Lezgins, Chechens, Alans/Ossetians, Kabardians, Balkars, Karachays, Adygs and other Circassians, all of whom fiercely fought each other and any outsider who dared set foot in the region.

    It took the Russian Tsars and their huge army (and they were also allied with the Georgians back then), almost fifty fucking years to defeat and conquer North Caucasus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War

    It's just a very martial, aggressive culture. Today, it manifests, for example, in organized crime. Chechen and Dagestani mercenary goons are often used by other factions within Russian mafia as hired muscle for the worst, dirtiest, bloodiest jobs, enforcers, debt collectors, assassins, because they are especially violent, crazy, ready to kill


    Hell, in Donbass, the Ukrainians greatly feared Kadyrov's Chechen fighters

    They were absolutely fearless in battle, supposedly; and ruthless towards POWs, could torture and such (in fact, I heard the separatists specifically used the Chechens for this, if they needed someone tortured for information or something, and didn't want to lower their own selves to it, just handed him to the Chechs...) Later, all the Slavic militias united against the Chechens and kicked them out, after the Chechens got into a fight with an ethnic Russian militia over turf. No Chechens there now, aside from a couple individual volunteers.

    Before Donbass, the Chechen spetsnaz battalion Vostok helped drive the Georgians from South Ossetia in 2008


    Does this kind of culture sound like it could produce gays and transgenders? And yet...

    Of course, Chechnya also has one of Russia's few female pilots, Larina Evmurzaeva


    A glamorous woman


    Hardly the stereotypical image of a Chechenka (wrapped in a hijab, stuck forever to her husband and kids, locked up in her kitchen lol)

    So... One must make an effort not to broad-brush any entire people...
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    Veteran Member Spookycolt's Avatar
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    So... One must make an effort not to broad-brush any entire people...
    Most of us don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Most of us don't.
    I am. Or was, at least. I can't help it... Just can't wrap my head around the idea of a transgender Chechen... lol My God...

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    Veteran Member Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    I am. Or was, at least. I can't help it... Just can't wrap my head around the idea of a transgender Chechen... lol My God...
    There are always generalities among any group. Odds are there aren't a lot of trans or gays over there so you are not necessarily wrong.

    It makes a good case for environment causing these conditions in humans though doesn't it?

    They only flourish in certain cultures. So either there are mass graves of gays over there, which there aren't, or all of them simply hide it.

    That doesn't seem likely either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    There are always generalities among any group. Odds are there aren't a lot of trans or gays over there so you are not necessarily wrong.

    It makes a good case for environment causing these conditions in humans though doesn't it?

    They only flourish in certain cultures. So either there are mass graves of gays over there, which there aren't, or all of them simply hide it.

    That doesn't seem likely either.
    I honestly have no idea. Chechnya is not a big place, geographically. And they only have about 1.4 million people. Hard to hide much in that... But, it is also a very closed society, which doesn't welcome, and violently lashes out against, journalists and human rights people, own or outsiders. Nobody really knows what goes on in there day to day. Not even Putin, he hand all that shit over to Kadyrov, and washed his hands off it. As long as Kadyrov keeps his people quiet and in line and keeps a lid on any dissent in his relublic, by whatever means and methods he feels necessary; Putin doesn't give a shit either. And, frankly, the less he knows about any of it, the more deniability he has.

    So... Yeah... I have no idea...

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    So how things were during communist-era with them?

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    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    I feel like places like this (all unique but similar, if you catch my meaning), the hardliners feel like if one person gets away with bucking the system... one person one time ... the whole system will collapse.

    Like if they let one person gets away with being a transgendered Chechen, then there will be hundreds, thousands, and also women will demand jobs, kids will smoke dope, workers will demand rights, soldiers won't fight, wives won't listen, off go the headscarves, now there's divorce, abortion, minorities, immigrants, evolution, global warming and sex Ed in school.

    All because one dude felt happier being a girl. And got away with it.


    And the kicker?

    They're absolutely right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Chechnya's ‘First Transgender Woman’ Comes Forward

    This is all fucking surreal, to me... You have to be from Caucasus, to understand this, and maybe it does speak to my own prejudices and preconceptions formed by my upbringing there, in Caucasus and in Russia in general, that I am having a hard time even imagining a transgender Chechen. Or even a gay Chechen, for that matter... Something like this, over there, you can't even TALK about it...
    .

    The short answer is, people are born gay and trans. These are variations on humans, and they appear in approximately the same percentages in every group of humans, regardless of how that group might view homosexuality or transgenderism. I remind you, ISIS is notorious for killing gay Muslim men. Ergo, there are gay Muslim men living in ISIS-controlled areas of the Middle East.

    It is a society (Caucasus in general and Chechnya especially), with VERY hard, strict, entrenched gender roles and expectations. Women are wives and mothers. Men are workers and protectors. And warriors, above all. Caucasus is a very macho, masculine, manly place. For thousands of years it was populated by all these warrior tribes, Dargins, Lezgins, Chechens, Alans/Ossetians, Kabardians, Balkars, Karachays, Adygs and other Circassians, all of whom fiercely fought each other and any outsider who dared set foot in the region.

    It took the Russian Tsars and their huge army (and they were also allied with the Georgians back then), almost fifty fucking years to defeat and conquer North Caucasus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_War

    It's just a very martial, aggressive culture. Today, it manifests, for example, in organized crime. Chechen and Dagestani mercenary goons are often used by other factions within Russian mafia as hired muscle for the worst, dirtiest, bloodiest jobs, enforcers, debt collectors, assassins, because they are especially violent, crazy, ready to kill
    It is possible there is a genetic basis for violence of some kinds, and that these genes are more frequently expressed in humans of that region. Obviously, it is also likely the incessant warmaking has shaped a society that values violent behavior to a high degree. But it is entirely possible to be gay or trans AND violent. The reason there are so few violent gay stereotypes in modern Western culture now is the AIDS crisis; there are no Vietnam Era or WW II gay vets left of the hyperviolent sort, or almost none, because they were also usually also hyersexual and thus, early victims of the disease.

    Hell, in Donbass, the Ukrainians greatly feared Kadyrov's Chechen fighters

    They were absolutely fearless in battle, supposedly; and ruthless towards POWs, could torture and such (in fact, I heard the separatists specifically used the Chechens for this, if they needed someone tortured for information or something, and didn't want to lower their own selves to it, just handed him to the Chechs...) Later, all the Slavic militias united against the Chechens and kicked them out, after the Chechens got into a fight with an ethnic Russian militia over turf. No Chechens there now, aside from a couple individual volunteers.
    Even assuming there is a genetic basis for some sadism, it would still be possible -- even likely -- that at least some gays and trans people are sadistic as hell. A quick review of the criminal careers of serial killers would seem to bear that out.

    Before Donbass, the Chechen spetsnaz battalion Vostok helped drive the Georgians from South Ossetia in 2008

    Does this kind of culture sound like it could produce gays and transgenders? And yet...
    The society's values might embolden some to experiment with homosexuality or even to claim to be trans without that actually being true, and likewise, it could repress such impulses. This would affect the total number of people who "declared" themselves to be gay or trans, but it would not affect the number who actually are.

    Both homosexuality and transgenderism are prenatal characteristics that almost certainly cannot be created after birth without that genetic link.

    Every society has tales of people who "passed" as members of the opposite sex, not discovered until after they died. There almost certainly are such stories about this group, too.

    Of course, Chechnya also has one of Russia's few female pilots, Larina Evmurzaeva

    A glamorous woman

    Hardly the stereotypical image of a Chechenka (wrapped in a hijab, stuck forever to her husband and kids, locked up in her kitchen lol)

    So... One must make an effort not to broad-brush any entire people...
    More than that, Daddio. You need to refrain from assuming that a woman's profession reveals her sexuality. Not all combat pilots who are female are gay, anymore than all male kindergarten teachers are gay. That's not how sexual orientation works.

    Chechneyans have the same percent of left-handed people as any other group of humans on earth, and the same percent who are gay or trans.
    Last edited by Madeline; 19th May 2017 at 03:34 AM.
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    Veteran Member Spookycolt's Avatar
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    You can't assume there are the same percentages of gays in all regions while claiming that there are other genetic differences based on region.

    True redheads run about the same percentage as homosexuals yet they seem to only dominate certain regions.

    You don't see many coming out of Africa so to say that Chechnya has the same amount of gays is just a silly argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousou View Post
    So how things were during communist-era with them?
    Well, Stalin, of course, accused them all of disloyalty during WWII and then banished the lot of them to Central Asia.

    It's not true though. Chechens fought for Russia in WWII, and fought well.

    Abukhadzhi Idrisov

    349 dead Germans to his credit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abukhadzhi_Idrisov

    In the 80s, the troubles started there, between Chechens and others. In the 90s, there was the rebellion that Putin would then crush when he took power. 300,000 dead. Mass graves and all...

    Frankly, Chechnya's history is like that, full of misery and violence and death. Maybe why they are as they are...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    I feel like places like this (all unique but similar, if you catch my meaning), the hardliners feel like if one person gets away with bucking the system... one person one time ... the whole system will collapse.

    Like if they let one person gets away with being a transgendered Chechen, then there will be hundreds, thousands, and also women will demand jobs, kids will smoke dope, workers will demand rights, soldiers won't fight, wives won't listen, off go the headscarves, now there's divorce, abortion, minorities, immigrants, evolution, global warming and sex Ed in school.

    All because one dude felt happier being a girl. And got away with it.


    And the kicker?

    They're absolutely right.
    That's true, it always does start with one person... lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    .

    The short answer is, people are born gay and trans. These are variations on humans, and they appear in approximately the same percentages in every group of humans, regardless of how that group might view homosexuality or transgenderism. I remind you, ISIS is notorious for killing gay Muslim men. Ergo, there are gay Muslim men living in ISIS-controlled areas of the Middle East.



    It is possible there is a genetic basis for violence of some kinds, and that these genes are more frequently expressed in humans of that region. Obviously, it is also likely the incessant warmaking has shaped a society that values violent behavior to a high degree. But it is entirely possible to be gay or trans AND violent. The reason there are so few violent gay stereotypes in modern Western culture now is the AIDS crisis; there are no Vietnam Era or WW II gay vets left of the hyperviolent sort, or almost none, because they were also usually also hyersexual and thus, early victims of the disease.



    Even assuming there is a genetic basis for some sadism, it would still be possible -- even likely -- that at least some gays and trans people are sadistic as hell. A quick review of the criminal careers of serial killers would seem to bear that out.



    The society's values might embolden some to experiment with homosexuality or even to claim to be trans without that actually being true, and likewise, it could repress such impulses. This would affect the total number of people who "declared" themselves to be gay or trans, but it would not affect the number who actually are.

    Both homosexuality and transgenderism are prenatal characteristics that almost certainly cannot be created after birth without that genetic link.

    Every society has tales of people who "passed" as members of the opposite sex, not discovered until after they died. There almost certainly are such stories about this group, too.



    More than that, Daddio. You need to refrain from assuming that a woman's profession reveals her sexuality. Not all combat pilots who are female are gay, anymore than all male kindergarten teachers are gay. That's not how sexual orientation works.

    Chechneyans have the same percent of left-handed people as any other group of humans on earth, and the same percent who are gay or trans.
    Larina is a civil pilot, not combat. But, I never assumed her sexuality lol I doubt she is a lesbian... Just that, by her whole image she breaks the traditional stereotypes of Chechen women. And good for her

    Good points, otherwise

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    You can't assume there are the same percentages of gays in all regions while claiming that there are other genetic differences based on region.

    True redheads run about the same percentage as homosexuals yet they seem to only dominate certain regions.

    You don't see many coming out of Africa so to say that Chechnya has the same amount of gays is just a silly argument.
    Or, they have the same average and those folks have simply learbed to hide it well, or repress it inside them, for own safety...
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