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Thread: Trump Jr. Was Told Russian Government Was the Source of Clinton Information

  1. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Wait...there's no reason to believe that an MI6 agent is still somehow connected with the British government.
    When you contract with them separately, you are not contracting with the British government. That seems obvious to me.

    Like I said, it does seem like Junior might have screwed the pooch here. But it's been going on for the better part of A YEAR. And every step of the way, the entire universe has been awash in pissed off Hillary supporters who KNOW for SURE that Trump was working for the Russians.
    You need to distinguish between people who would convict Trump without evidence and those who would not. We're not all the same.

    I don't expect people to wait until there is something to talk about before they talk about it. I'm just saying it's a bullshit waste of time, and all pretenses of objectivity have been OBLITERATED by the process.
    It's important because it has an effect on politics at this moment. Will GOP senators change their votes and approval this horrid health care bill because the president asks them? If they think he might be forced to resign in the next year or so, probably not. These arguments have a real effect on politics and policy at this moment, so they are worth talking about.

    Of course, Trump could stop the whole thing by simply coming clean about everything people want to know about--everything that every other president has done, back to Nixon. But so long as the Trump WH 1) is discovered lying and 2) appears to do everything it can to block investigations into its activities--those things are going to have a real, palpable effect on his ability to govern. Are you really saying his opponents should not take advantage of this weakness? A weakness he could dismiss pretty easily (if he's really not guilty of anything).

    No. He keeps getting caught in lies. That makes this all worth talking about.

  2. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    My problem with your positions but with your definitions. The definitions don't change because I can't find an example...I'm not a cop or a prosecutor, so how would I know the body of prosecutions going on in our country?

    If you want to say that the only ethical concerns we should have regarding our politicians occur only if they are convicted of a crime, you've really lowered the bar, haven't you? I mean, you're free then to support even the most dastardly malfeasance up to the moment the jury returns a verdict of guilty. Kind of a low bar, no?

    That IS the bar in business, by the way--everything's fair unless you get convicted. Is that really what we want for our country?

    For a guy who attended a Christian college and who touts his own virtues so plainly, you have a very slippery system of ethics.
    After eight years of watching Obama collude with the press to falsify information and shape public messaging to his own advantage, excuse me if I don't fall for this line of crap.

    I am a fallen man, a sinner, someone who is forgiven but not perfect. I see Obama's fingerprints all over this Goebbels like "resist" movement. So I am holding my ground. Prove actual solicitation. Prove actual collusion and I am on-board for forcing Trump to resign or be impeached. I did not vote for the man. But you are not at that standard yet.
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  3. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    When you contract with them separately, you are not contracting with the British government. That seems obvious to me.

    You need to distinguish between people who would convict Trump without evidence and those who would not. We're not all the same.

    It's important because it has an effect on politics at this moment. Will GOP senators change their votes and approval this horrid health care bill because the president asks them? If they think he might be forced to resign in the next year or so, probably not. These arguments have a real effect on politics and policy at this moment, so they are worth talking about.

    Of course, Trump could stop the whole thing by simply coming clean about everything people want to know about--everything that every other president has done, back to Nixon. But so long as the Trump WH 1) is discovered lying and 2) appears to do everything it can to block investigations into its activities--those things are going to have a real, palpable effect on his ability to govern. Are you really saying his opponents should not take advantage of this weakness? A weakness he could dismiss pretty easily (if he's really not guilty of anything).

    No. He keeps getting caught in lies. That makes this all worth talking about.
    That's the best argument in favor of the ongoing circus I've heard so far. In fact, I'm completely converted on everything except the MI6 bit. Seriously.

    But given the ease with which people can manage their appearances, put on roles as needed, I don't see how you can so cleanly dismiss the notion that Jeb contracting a foreign national spy to dig dirt on Trump is similar to what Trump did. Seems to me that based on the fact that this agent clearly worked for the British government at one point, in intelligence, and could easily still be doing so covertly, an investigation into that possible connection would not be insane. Maybe it isn't indicated, based on any number of things.

    But those numbers of things have not only not stopped an investigation into a possible connection, but a rabid assault by Trump haters and the media on every angle, any remote possibility that might have possibly yielded a connection to Russia.

    I'm saying the two are being handled very differently. Then again, if Trump's enemies are attacking him over Russia, who would attack Jeb? The Democrats? He didn't win anything, and he's part of the innermost circle, and, worst of all, pursuing that possibility even a tiny bit undermines the narrative about Trump in the Zeitgeist, and they sure as hell do NOT want to do that. And clearly there is no way the GOP crew is going after Jeb.

    Trump has been crucified by the media and his opponents as a Russian "colluder" from the get-go. Every angle has been rabidly run down for any trace of a connection. Nobody, none of the "objective" liberals who hate Trump, seems to think there is any reason to examine Jeb's behavior even a little, let alone with the rabid doggedness that has characterized the Trump campaign.

    Just saying. This isn't just objective and logical and fair. People hate Trump, and it shows.
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  4. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    After eight years of watching Obama collude with the press to falsify information and shape public messaging to his own advantage, excuse me if I don't fall for this line of crap.
    Oh, please.

    I am a fallen man, a sinner, someone who is forgiven but not perfect. I see Obama's fingerprints all over this Goebbels like "resist" movement.
    When "resist" becomes anything lie comparable to Nazis, that won't be a totally childish, tribal response. Political demonstrations and political movements are, de facto, legitimate in a democracy. Who leads them doesn't matter.
    So I am holding my ground. Prove actual solicitation.
    Already done.
    Prove actual collusion and I am on-board for forcing Trump to resign or be impeached. I did not vote for the man. But you are not at that standard yet.
    No, we're not. In your judgments of contempt you have a very high bar for your guys and very low bar for your opponents'. That's so obvious from this conversation.
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  5. #795
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    Goodness, you hate Obama. I don't think I hate Trump as much as you hate Obama.
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  6. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Goodness, you hate Obama. I don't think I hate Trump as much as you hate Obama.
    I don't hate anyone. I observed Obama through both his terms and watched as the press covered up his faults, ignored his abuses and accepted his diversions. I hate the job the press did covering Obama. But that is not hating someone. Obama was indulged by his party, the press and an adoring media. I had to get a European news magazine (The Economist) to find criticism of Obama that was factual and detached from bias. Here's a solid investigation of Obama and the environment he served in. It was not all his fault.

    https://www.amazon.com/Stonewalled-O.../dp/0062322850

  7. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    I don't hate anyone.
    From out of the wealth of the heart, the mouth speaks. Look at your language:
    I observed Obama through both his terms and watched as the press covered up his faults, ignored his abuses and accepted his diversions. I hate the job the press did covering Obama. But that is not hating someone. Obama was indulged by his party, the press and an adoring media. I had to get a European news magazine (The Economist) to find criticism of Obama that was factual and detached from bias. Here's a solid investigation of Obama and the environment he served in. It was not all his fault.
    https://www.amazon.com/Stonewalled-O.../dp/0062322850
    Yes, you've linked this book before. I'm glad you've read one book about the American media. Strangely, every time we talk about the media, you make a claim you got out of this book. Then I point out why that's wrong. Then you sputter or stop talking.
    Last edited by Rasselas; 17th July 2017 at 04:32 PM.
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  8. #798
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    It's all part of the fictional world KMiller demands everyone who has the nerve to participate in a conversation with him adhere to as the baseline of "reality" from which to start.
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  9. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    After eight years of watching Obama collude with the press to falsify information and shape public messaging to his own advantage, excuse me if I don't fall for this line of crap.

    I am a fallen man, a sinner, someone who is forgiven but not perfect. I see Obama's fingerprints all over this Goebbels like "resist" movement. So I am holding my ground. Prove actual solicitation. Prove actual collusion and I am on-board for forcing Trump to resign or be impeached. I did not vote for the man. But you are not at that standard yet.
    Obama colluding with the press was all inside your head, put there by Rush and the like. Even if it were true, subcontracting dirt-digging on a political opponent to a hostile government's spies is in no way comparable.

  10. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangermouse View Post
    Obama colluding with the press was all inside your head, put there by Rush and the like. Even if it were true, subcontracting dirt-digging on a political opponent to a hostile government's spies is in no way comparable.
    Who said it was comparable? They are different issues. But the idea that the press enables one of the two major political parties and is an active collaborator should concern anyone who wants an objective press.

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