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Thread: Trump - Not ruling out military option against Venezuela

  1. #71
    Cat-tastic Babba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    At the point where the Nazis had invaded Poland, you are essentially correct - however had we Brits and you Americans acted like we had a pair of balls in 1918, and told the French to go fornicate themselves over the conditions upon which they insisted in the Treaty of Versailles - the devastation of Germany would not have resulted, and given better circumstances, and the chance of national self-respect - Germany's first democratic government may not have failed. As it was, the punitive reparations demanded by the French (as vengeance for their defeat in the Franco-Prussian War) in conjunction with a world wide depression, made the fall of the Weimar republic inevitable, and created the conditions for a Donald Trump figure in the shape of Herr Hitler to speak that most most nationally dangerous of sentences "I will make (America/Germany) great again!" The less thoughtful and more nationalistic Germans (not unlike their modern day American counterparts,) lapped that up - and we got the 'Thousand Year Reich' (which did not last 11 years) and somewhere between 60 million and 80 million people died.

    But it was not 'the good war' - there ain't no such animal!
    As I've said before, you're wise beyond you years, Leo.

  2. #72
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    Aristotle was never as wise as you, good sir.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    The fact is that Obama's approach didn't work, its time to do something else and Trump is doing that by taking a different, hardline stance.
    Yeah? By threatening violence?

  4. #74
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    At the point where the Nazis had invaded Poland, you are essentially correct - however had we Brits and you Americans acted like we had a pair of balls in 1918, and told the French to go fornicate themselves over the conditions upon which they insisted in the Treaty of Versailles - the devastation of Germany would not have resulted, and given better circumstances, and the chance of national self-respect - Germany's first democratic government may not have failed. As it was, the punitive reparations demanded by the French (as vengeance for their defeat in the Franco-Prussian War) in conjunction with a world wide depression, made the fall of the Weimar republic inevitable, and created the conditions for a Donald Trump figure in the shape of Herr Hitler to speak that most most nationally dangerous of sentences "I will make (America/Germany) great again!" The less thoughtful and more nationalistic Germans (not unlike their modern day American counterparts,) lapped that up - and we got the 'Thousand Year Reich' (which did not last 11 years) and somewhere between 60 million and 80 million people died.

    But it was not 'the good war' - there ain't no such animal!
    Agree with everything in your first paragraph.....and America's failure to join the League of Nations also played a major role.

    A book you might want to read, an eerily prophetic book: The Economic Consequences of the Peace, published in 1919, which PREDICTED World War II.

    It was written by John Maynard Keynes.
    Thanks from Leo2

  5. #75
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    Agree with everything in your first paragraph.....and America's failure to join the League of Nations also played a major role.

    A book you might want to read, an eerily prophetic book: The Economic Consequences of the Peace, published in 1919, which PREDICTED World War II.

    It was written by John Maynard Keynes.
    Thanks for that, and whilst I can understand your reservations regarding the last sentence - I maintain that there can never be such a thing as a good war. I tend to the view that it is possible to fight a just war (and surmise that may have been to what you were referring,) but only as a defence against an actual invasion of one's homeland, and/or an attack upon one's citizenry, or upon a defenceless people dependent upon one's protection. Pre-emptive defence is a nonsense, conjured up by bullies and cowards. The concept of killing civilians in a society which one suspects might be developing weapons even approaching the weaponry one already wields, upon the spurious justification that, should they develop such weapons, they might decide to use them upon your hugely armed and protected nation, is nothing short of criminal lunacy. Surely the crime against humanity that was the invasion and destruction of Iraq, has taught us that, if nothing else?
    Thanks from BigLeRoy

  6. #76
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    Thanks for that, and whilst I can understand your reservations regarding the last sentence - I maintain that there can never be such a thing as a good war. I tend to the view that it is possible to fight a just war (and surmise that may have been to what you were referring,) but only as a defence against an actual invasion of one's homeland, and/or an attack upon one's citizenry, or upon a defenceless people dependent upon one's protection. Pre-emptive defence is a nonsense, conjured up by bullies and cowards. The concept of killing civilians in a society which one suspects might be developing weapons even approaching the weaponry one already wields, upon the spurious justification that, should they develop such weapons, they might decide to use them upon your hugely armed and protected nation, is nothing short of criminal lunacy. Surely the crime against humanity that was the invasion and destruction of Iraq, has taught us that, if nothing else?
    I am very much a critic of the Bush Doctrine of Pre-Emptive War. Our invasion of Iraq was the WORST foreign policy blunder that America has EVER made, IMO.

    Interesting question: Is there any difference between a 'just war' and a 'good war'? I gather you say there is. I will need to think about it.
    Thanks from BitterPill

  7. #77
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I am very much a critic of the Bush Doctrine of Pre-Emptive War. Our invasion of Iraq was the WORST foreign policy blunder that America has EVER made, IMO.

    Interesting question: Is there any difference between a 'just war' and a 'good war'? I gather you say there is. I will need to think about it.
    I make the differentiation on the basis that self-defence is both legally and morally defensible. Which renders that action just in that particular context - however it does not render the violence, destruction, and death involved therein 'good' in any sense of the word.
    Thanks from BitterPill

  8. #78
    The Covfefe are Coming! BitterPill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    God forbid that Trump makes NK and Venezuela start treating people horribly.

    lol
    He did here.

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