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Thread: Good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns.

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    Good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns.

    A list you won't hear about in the lamestream media.

    There are countless examples of people using guns in self-defense at their homes or workplaces.* But I want to focus on a much narrower set of cases where permit holders stopped public shootings.* Here are 10 additional recent cases.
    -- Arlington, Texas, May 3, 2017: A police spokesman stated that the concealed handgun permit holder “prevented further loss of life.” * A Dallas Morning News headline read: “‘Hero’ stopped mass murder by crazed bar patron who was armed to the teeth, police say.”
    -- Lyman, South Carolina, June 30, 2016: Just a couple of weeks after the Orlando massacre,*32-year-old Jody Ray Thompson opened fire on*another nightclub. *Fortunately, permitted concealed handguns were allowed in South Carolina bars. *Thompson was able to shoot three people before the permit holder fired back and wounded Thompson in the leg.* Fox 5 in Atlanta reports: “At least one South Carolina sheriff are crediting a man with a concealed carry permit with preventing further violence at a nightclub this past Sunday.”
    -- Winton, Ohio, July 26, 2015: A man started shooting at four people who were walking outside on a summer’s evening.* Fortunately, a concealed handgun permit holder fired at the attacker, giving the four people a chance to escape into their home.
    -- Conyers, Georgia, May 31, 2015: A man killed two people at a liquor store and continued shooting at others until a permit holder ran inside and exchanged fire.* The killer then fled the store.* “I believe that if Mr. Scott did not return fire at the suspect then more of those customers would have [been] hit by a gun,” said Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett. “So in my opinion he saved other lives in that store.”
    -- New Holland, South Carolina, May 5, 2015: New Holland Fire Department volunteers were hosting a children’s day event with ice cream and fire truck rides, when a man started shooting.* Fortunately, two firemen were permit holders and were able to stop the attack.
    -- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 22, 2015: A 40-year-old man started shooting at people in a barber shop.* A permit holder who heard the gunfire ran inside and shot the attacker.* “The person who responded was a legal gun permit carrier.* He responded and I guess he saved a lot of people in there,” said Philadelphia Police Captain Frank Llewellyn.
    -- Darby, Pennsylvania, July 24, 2014:* Convicted felon Richard Plotts killed a caseworker at Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital and started shooting at Dr. Lee Silverman. Fortunately, the doctor had his own gun and returned fire, critically wounding Plotts, who still had 39 bullets on him.* “Without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives,” said Yeadon police chief Donald Molineux.
    -- Chicago, Illinois, July 7, 2014:* Gang members started firing at four people who had just left a party.* The attack started because one of the four people removed a cup of liquor that had been placed on top of her vehicle.* Luckily, one of the four people — a military member — had a permitted concealed handgun and was able to wound the primary attacker.
    -- Portland, Oregon, January 11, 2014: Convicted criminal Thomas Eliot Hjelmeland was ejected from a nightclub but returned 30 minutes later wearing a mask and carrying a gun.* He shot the bouncer who had ejected him, and shot at others.* Two others were wounded, and Hjelmeland was shooting all around the club. A concealed handgun permit holder who worked at the nightclub then fatally shot Hjelmeland.
    And here are just two more cases from 2000 to 2013 — the same period that the FBI claims only had one instance of a permit holder stopping a public shooting.* Again, law enforcement say that permit holders saved lives in both of these cases.
    -- Plymouth, Pennsylvania, September 9, 2012: William Allabaugh shot at people as he walked down the street in Plymouth, Pennsylvania.* He wounded one and killed another.* Permit holder Mark Ktytor fatally shot Allabaugh.** “Mr. [Ktytor] then acted, taking him [Allabaugh] down. We believe that it could have been much worse that night,” said Luzerne County Assistant District Attorney Jarrett Ferentino.
    -- Spartanburg, South Carolina, March 2012: Jesse Gates kicked open a door to a church and pointed a shotgun at the pastor and congregation.* Parishioner Aaron Guyton, a concealed weapons permit holder, got the drop on Gates and held him at gunpoint.* Sheriff Chuck Wright called Aaron and others at the church “everyday heroes.”
    Permit holders haven't just stopped public shootings.* They have stopped everything from public knife attacks to vehicle attacks.**
    I haven't found a single case where gun control advocates' fears were borne out by the facts.* In not one of these cases did a permit holder accidentally shoot a bystander, or a police officer accidentally harm a permit holder.

    Good guys with guns saving lives | Fox News
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    Wow - 10 cases?


    Meanwhile

    The Texas shooting exposes what this narrative gets wrong — more than 40 people were shot before another armed person intervened. But this was tragically predictable, because the reality is that there is a lot of evidence that “a good guy with a gun” can’t stop mass shootings and other gun violence in the US. Here are three key reasons why.

    1) The research is clear: more guns, more gun deaths
    Here is a simple fact that should underpin most conversations about guns: Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. This has been found repeatedly in empirical research on the matter. We see this in cross-national data. Consider that America has nearly six times the gun homicide rate of Canada, more than seven times that of Sweden, and nearly 16 times that of Germany, according to United Nations data compiled by the Guardian. (These gun deaths are a big reason America has a much higher overall homicide rate, which includes non-gun deaths, than other developed nations.)

    2) For every criminal killed in self-defense, there are dozens more murders
    There’s another set of statistics that throws cold water on the “good guy with a gun” theory: It’s way more likely in America that someone will shoot and kill another person in the course of committing a crime than will do so in self-defense. Christopher Ingraham at the Washington Post ran through the statistics. He looked at how many gun homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings there were in comparison to “justifiable” homicides (“the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen”), based on the FBI’s 2012 data. His findings: For every justifiable gun homicide, there were 34 criminal gun homicides, 78 gun suicides, and two accidental gun deaths.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...g-good-guy-gun
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Wow - 10 cases?


    Meanwhile

    The Texas shooting exposes what this narrative gets wrong — more than 40 people were shot before another armed person intervened. But this was tragically predictable, because the reality is that there is a lot of evidence that “a good guy with a gun” can’t stop mass shootings and other gun violence in the US. Here are three key reasons why.

    1) The research is clear: more guns, more gun deaths
    Here is a simple fact that should underpin most conversations about guns: Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. This has been found repeatedly in empirical research on the matter. We see this in cross-national data. Consider that America has nearly six times the gun homicide rate of Canada, more than seven times that of Sweden, and nearly 16 times that of Germany, according to United Nations data compiled by the Guardian. (These gun deaths are a big reason America has a much higher overall homicide rate, which includes non-gun deaths, than other developed nations.)

    2) For every criminal killed in self-defense, there are dozens more murders
    There’s another set of statistics that throws cold water on the “good guy with a gun” theory: It’s way more likely in America that someone will shoot and kill another person in the course of committing a crime than will do so in self-defense. Christopher Ingraham at the Washington Post ran through the statistics. He looked at how many gun homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings there were in comparison to “justifiable” homicides (“the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen”), based on the FBI’s 2012 data. His findings: For every justifiable gun homicide, there were 34 criminal gun homicides, 78 gun suicides, and two accidental gun deaths.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...g-good-guy-gun
    There is a link in my link that lists countless times guns have been used in self defense.

    And Vox? Get serious.

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    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be better not to have "bad guys with guns" to begin with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Wouldn't it be better not to have "bad guys with guns" to begin with?
    Sure. Tell us how that is accomplished.

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    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    Sure. Tell us how that is accomplished.
    Already did that, but I'll summarize:

    Start a national gun registry that applies to all newly-manufactured firearms, and require all newly-manufactured firearms to have serial numbers on all feasible parts. Require all gun sales to go through licensed sellers and intermediaries so that the ownership transfer is logged. Every time guns are retrieved from a crime scene, trace it to the last sale, and figure out how the weapon landed in the hands of criminals. Use this information to continuously shore up weak spots in the law.

    Since the law won't apply to guns already in circulation, it will take a while for the law to have a measurable effect. But it's fairly safe to say that the majority of functional guns in the U.S. today are less than 25 years old. Within a few decades, nearly all guns will be registered, and finding (and closing) the venues that allow criminals to obtain weapons will be significantly easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Wouldn't it be better not to have "bad guys with guns" to begin with?
    bad guys without guns?? plz

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    A list you won't hear about in the lamestream media.



    Good guys with guns saving lives | Fox News
    After the fact.

    Shooter gets taken out AFTER killing masses of people. Killing/stopping the shooter after the shootings is almost always inevitable. No mass murderer has gone uncaptured.

    Who cares of Tim McVeigh was captured then executed or killed in a shoot out...he still killed all those people and kids.



    There is no "brighter side" of mass shootings. None.
    Last edited by DebateDrone; 14th November 2017 at 11:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    There is a link in my link that lists countless times guns have been used in self defense.

    And Vox? Get serious.
    LOL and you think Vox is biased?

  10. #10
    Veteran Member aboutenough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Already did that, but I'll summarize:

    Start a national gun registry that applies to all newly-manufactured firearms, and require all newly-manufactured firearms to have serial numbers on all feasible parts. Require all gun sales to go through licensed sellers and intermediaries so that the ownership transfer is logged. Every time guns are retrieved from a crime scene, trace it to the last sale, and figure out how the weapon landed in the hands of criminals. Use this information to continuously shore up weak spots in the law.

    Since the law won't apply to guns already in circulation, it will take a while for the law to have a measurable effect. But it's fairly safe to say that the majority of functional guns in the U.S. today are less than 25 years old. Within a few decades, nearly all guns will be registered, and finding (and closing) the venues that allow criminals to obtain weapons will be significantly easier.
    I appreciate your thoughts on making more laws to protect citizens, but the two last shootings had cases where neither of the shooter should have had guns according to current laws. The Texas shooter should not have been able to buy a gun, but the military failed to report his bad behavior discharge that would have stopped him from buying a gun. The shooting at the school today was done by a felon in California where gun control is extremely strict. The laws don't seem to stop these shooters.
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