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Thread: Opponents in LGBT case agree: It's not about wedding cake

  1. #231
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    He also doesn't make custom cakes celebrating Halloween.
    Does he make wedding cakes? Yes? Then, unless the couple asks for something specific to indicate that this is a cake for a gay wedding - they didn't - then they didn't ask for a "custom" cake. They just asked for one of his wedding cakes, which he does make. You keep trying to imply that what they asked for was "custom", and unique to what he offers all other customers. They didn't. So your "custom" argument fails.

  2. #232
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    I should have been clearer ... the court records state that there was no discussion about wedding cake designs. Nothing related to personalization of the wedding cake. Yes, they were offered "other products," but not the product they wanted - which would have been offered had one of the customers been female.
    Ya know, that's what gay couples need to do, from now on - get a female fried to order the cakes, then, after its paid for, they (the couple) goes and picks up the cake, and thanks the baker for his work. It would be brilliant to watch all those heads exploding as they realise that they just got tricked into baking a "gay cake", and absolutely nothing happened to them.

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Ya know, that's what gay couples need to do, from now on - get a female fried to order the cakes, then, after its paid for, they (the couple) goes and picks up the cake, and thanks the baker for his work. It would be brilliant to watch all those heads exploding as they realise that they just got tricked into baking a "gay cake", and absolutely nothing happened to them.
    LOL...a "gay cake"! Oh, that's hilarious.

    Yes, in fact, let's make a reality show out of it. Gay people who want services for all things GAY who enlist the services of a small team that goes in, procures everything, and then at some point drop the hammer: YOU'VE JUST SOLD FLOWERS FOR A GAY WEDDING!! YOU'VE JUST TAKEN A DEPOSIT ON A CATERING JOB AT A GAY WEDDING!!!

    Fucking priceless. Worth every penny. I'd subscribe to HBO every month just to be able to watch those fucking dipshits get punked.
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  4. #234
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    LOL...a "gay cake"! Oh, that's hilarious.

    Yes, in fact, let's make a reality show out of it. Gay people who want services for all things GAY who enlist the services of a small team that goes in, procures everything, and then at some point drop the hammer: YOU'VE JUST SOLD FLOWERS FOR A GAY WEDDING!! YOU'VE JUST TAKEN A DEPOSIT ON A CATERING JOB AT A GAY WEDDING!!!

    Fucking priceless. Worth every penny. I'd subscribe to HBO every month just to be able to watch those fucking dipshits get punked.
    Yes, it would be so wonderful. I'll bet doing so could arise more hatred toward the LGBT community. You'd probably hear all kinds of slurs toward gay people from the service providers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    Yes, it would be so wonderful. I'll bet doing so could arise more hatred toward the LGBT community. You'd probably hear all kinds of slurs toward gay people from the service providers.
    Yeah, whatever we do, don't ridicule myopic bigoted rednecks. Just leave them alone.

    That's working so well in Alabama, where (apparently) half the voting population thinks it's not really a big deal for a 30-year-old man to habitually sexually pursue 14-year-old girls. Let's just let their ignorance lie, so they don't get riled up.

    Fuck them and fuck all that.

    These are the same people who told us that gay marriage was a slippery slope to pedophilia and bestiality. Oh, did we imply that was a bad thing when it served us in our opposition to gay marriage? That was an accident. We only meant to say it would lead to bestiality. Pedophilia is not a bad thing. Depends where you live. Moral relativism is not a problem, either.

    Yes, yes, whatever we do...let's not challenge the half-conscious ignorance that fuels most of the bigoted hateful shit we deal with every day in the world.

    Okay, granted, publicly making fools of people is probably not a great idea. Maybe it won't pass muster as a reality TV show. It's really a classless, cruel thing to do...

    ...hey, what the fuck am I saying? This reality TV GOLD, man! You want to pitch it? I'll bet we can get it done. So what if the fundie rubes hate us. We'll get ours, and everybody knows that's all that matters.
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  6. #236
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    Yes, it would be so wonderful. I'll bet doing so could arise more hatred toward the LGBT community. You'd probably hear all kinds of slurs toward gay people from the service providers.
    Hey. You said yourself, we're not going to change them. So, we might as well find ways to work around their hatred, and turn it into an advantage to expose how absurd they are.
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  7. #237
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Hey. You said yourself, we're not going to change them. So, we might as well find ways to work around their hatred, and turn it into an advantage to expose how absurd they are.
    That's not trying to work around it or educate them. That is trying to inflame them. And it's stupid.

  8. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Your entire post is byullshit. You keep wanting to pretend that a wedding cake screams, "I love F*gs" just because it happens to be a same sex couple participating in the wedding. Tell you what. You tell me which of these cakes were prepared for a same-sex marriage, and which was prepared for a heterosexual marriage, and I will happily agree with you. After all the "message" of the cake should be obcious, right:

    Now, you tell me which cake sent the message, "This is a gay wedding", and which one doesn't, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, if you are willing to bake wedding cakes for some of your customewrs, you have to be willing to bake them for all of your customers. Baking the exact same cake that you would for a heterosexual couple, for a gay couple doesn't magically turn the cake into a "Dick cake".
    Those cakes to me are generic and convey no message at all. They don't even necessarily convey they are wedding cakes. You show us pictures of cakes that remove the speech and then declare it byullshit when people object to the lack of speech.

    You wouldn't need to get a custom cake for it to be generic. Those cakes also don't appear to celebrate divorce, Halloween or "speak" against any other prohibition he had in place for his business.

    He told them he doesn't engage in certain speech. They left rather than trying to discuss generic speech. He offered generic services. They left. From the multiple accounts I have read, his specific words were that he would not make a cake that PROMOTES same-sex marriage.

    It would be interesting to see what sort of cake they finally settled on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    You make an intelligent argument.

    But I don't believe asking for a specific custom product with a specific custom message really matters here because the baker specifically told the gay couple that he did not do these types of cakes for gay weddings. This implies that he does in fact do custom cakes for heterosexual weddings. So he is denying them a service he does for others due to the couple's sexual orientation - which is against Colorado State law which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

    So I really don't see how the Supreme Court can realistically rule in favor of Philips here. If they were to do so it would literally render our civil rights laws as unconstitutional by saying they violate our free speech rights.
    No right is absolute. Clearly we can all understand that. You can't scream fire in a theater for free speech and choosing a heterosexual partner doesn't mean you practice homophobia.

    The matter here is the speech. He didn't show them out of his business or refuse to service them because they were gay. His concern was the speech specifically and in that regard he would be consistent and fine because he wouldn't endorse that speech for any customer. You would have a point if a straight couple came in and wanted a cake that endorsed same-sex marriage and he was willing to take their money and create the cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by boontito View Post
    You should learn the definition of discrimination. If he doesn't make Halloween cakes for ANYONE, why would it be discrimination to not make them for an individual group? It's not like he's making Halloween cakes for everyone but refuses to do so for Wiccans.
    You hit on the point. When the Wiccans sue though, they would try to force their speech on the baker using their status as a protected class. That is the crux of this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Thank you. This is what I have been trying to say. The people making trumptman's argument keep trying to suggest that a wedding cake sends some specific message, merely by virtue of who ordered the cake. They don't need to ask for anything special be done, all they need to do is ask for a "wedding" cake, and, magically, since it is a gay couple asking for the cake, it turns an otherwise generic wedding cake into a "dick cake". That means the focus of the request isn't the cake, at all, but the obsession that the supporters of the baker have over who is ordering the cake.
    If what you claimed was true, then he wouldn't have offered all the generic alternatives.

    If someone showed up at your bakery and they were in Nazi regalia and they wanted to consult on a custom cake and you started off the discussion with "I'm not willing to make a Nazi cake" and they walk out. Did you deny them business or did you deny them a message?

    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Does he make wedding cakes? Yes? Then, unless the couple asks for something specific to indicate that this is a cake for a gay wedding - they didn't - then they didn't ask for a "custom" cake. They just asked for one of his wedding cakes, which he does make. You keep trying to imply that what they asked for was "custom", and unique to what he offers all other customers. They didn't. So your "custom" argument fails.
    Actually I think you are simply ignoring the facts in this matter. He runs a bakery and part of that bakery dealt with custom wedding cakes and custom cakes overall. The articles I've read with note that he was ordered by the state to report on all his custom work for two years so they could monitor and make sure he was not discriminating in any fashion. His solution was to simply shut down the portion of business that deals in custom work which again, according to articles said he has made 40% less money.

    So now you and anyone can go into his shop and get all the generic products. Cookies, brownies, cakes and what have you but there is no customization. I suspect what he sells now isn't any different than as what someone else noted, you could get a a supermarket bakery on a sheet cake.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    That's not trying to work around it or educate them. That is trying to inflame them. And it's stupid.
    Since I know I can be murky in these posts I just want to explicitly state that I agree with what you are saying here.

    I just like to amuse myself by imagining rigidly ignorant people getting all bent out of shape.
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  10. #240
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
    Those cakes to me are generic and convey no message at all. They don't even necessarily convey they are wedding cakes. You show us pictures of cakes that remove the speech and then declare it byullshit when people object to the lack of speech.

    You wouldn't need to get a custom cake for it to be generic. Those cakes also don't appear to celebrate divorce, Halloween or "speak" against any other prohibition he had in place for his business.

    He told them he doesn't engage in certain speech. They left rather than trying to discuss generic speech. He offered generic services. They left. From the multiple accounts I have read, his specific words were that he would not make a cake that PROMOTES same-sex marriage.
    And, yet, those were wedding cakes. You, yourself, admit that they do not send any specific message. They left, because he refused to bake them a wedding cake. Again you want to pretend there is no difference between this:

    and this:


    The former is clearly a wedding cake, and the latter is clearly not. The couple did not want just a "generic" cake. They wanted a wedding cake. Not a "gay" wedding cake (there is no such thing), just a wedding cake. As you have already admitted that a wedding cake, in itself, sends no specific message, your argument that asking for a wedding cake required him to "send" a message is invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
    If what you claimed was true, then he wouldn't have offered all the generic alternatives.

    If someone showed up at your bakery and they were in Nazi regalia and they wanted to consult on a custom cake and you started off the discussion with "I'm not willing to make a Nazi cake" and they walk out. Did you deny them business or did you deny them a message?
    So long as they did not request a cake that specifically bore a swastika, then yes, refusing to bake them a cake would be denying them business.

    Quote Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
    Actually I think you are simply ignoring the facts in this matter. He runs a bakery and part of that bakery dealt with custom wedding cakes and custom cakes overall. The articles I've read with note that he was ordered by the state to report on all his custom work for two years so they could monitor and make sure he was not discriminating in any fashion. His solution was to simply shut down the portion of business that deals in custom work which again, according to articles said he has made 40% less money.

    So now you and anyone can go into his shop and get all the generic products. Cookies, brownies, cakes and what have you but there is no customization. I suspect what he sells now isn't any different than as what someone else noted, you could get a a supermarket bakery on a sheet cake.
    And I'm okay with that outcome. Very simple. Either bigots are going to learn to treat all customers - including homosexuals - the same as everyone else, or they will simply find themselves being forced out of business, and replaced with businesses that do treat everyone equally. I, personally, find it absurd that this baker would choose to stop making money in order to protect his ability to continue to be a bigot. It seems to me that just baking the damned cake would be the more financially prudent decision.

    But, I don't personally care. Either way, we win. Either a bigot no longer gets to do business - or, at least, does not get to continue doing the business that they did - or they stop being discriminatory in their practices. Either is a win in my book, because both outcomes send the clear message that bigotry will not be tolerated in businesses open to the public.

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