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Thread: Opponents in LGBT case agree: It's not about wedding cake

  1. #21
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Its not a "complex question", its a two player zero-sum game theory.

    The payoff for one will be equal to the loss of the other so if homosexuals win this "right" then the Christian loses their right.

    If the Christian wins their "right" the homosexual loses his.
    Except it presumes a right that Christians - in fact, no one - has. The right to discriminate in business practice based on religious beliefs.

  2. #22
    Voice of Reason ProgressivePatriot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    No, the loss is that many quality Christian businesses will no longer operate due to being forced to violate their belief system.

    And in the end that is what the LGBT community wants.

    The removal of Christianity from the world.
    Horseshit! Plain and simple,
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  3. #23
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    I think the case boils down to art versus commodities.

    If you look at the baker's work, it's clear that he is more of an artist than a provider of baked commodities.

    Artists have been picking and choosing their subject matter, messaging and unique expressions for a very long time.

    You cannot force any Artist to endorse any messaging that violates conscience or to create Art they don't feel like creating.
    See, that argument works, if the cake is being created to put on display, and preserved for future generations to admire. In that case, you're right. It is a work of art. If it is being produced to be eaten, it's not a work of art - it's a fucking baked good! To my knowledge, wedding cakes are almost entirely produced to the latter purpose, not the former.

  4. #24
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    No, the loss is that many quality Christian businesses will no longer operate due to being forced to violate their belief system.

    And in the end that is what the LGBT community wants.

    The removal of Christianity from the world.
    Quite frankly, yeah. I have no problem with that. If you are willing to close your doors, and not operate a business just because you are not allowed to discriminate, then, by all means, shutter those doors. I don't think there will be any great loss. No different than the southern businesses that shuttered their doors in the 60's because they couldn't discriminate against black folks any more. We survived that, and we'll survive this.

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    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    Quite frankly, yeah. I have no problem with that. If you are willing to close your doors, and not operate a business just because you are not allowed to discriminate, then, by all means, shutter those doors. I don't think there will be any great loss. No different than the southern businesses that shuttered their doors in the 60's because they couldn't discriminate against black folks any more. We survived that, and we'll survive this.
    Except they aren't discriminating.

    They would sell to homosexuals its just some items they won't make.

    That is their choice as a business.

    They are a business that offers a specific service and gay wedding cakes are not one of the things they offer.

    Its like going to Barnes and Noble and demanding they sell you a porn magazine, they say they don't sell that type of material there and you yell discrimination.

    If you want a gay wedding cake then go to a place that makes gay wedding cakes.

    There is absolutely no way this bakery loses this case.

    You can't force a business to provide a service they don't want to.

  6. #26
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    But going forward, gay people will be less likely to be turned away from businesses on account of their being gay. That's the real win.
    No, they are not. All this has done is stir up religious groups to hate them more. The clerk didn't sign the marriage licenses. The baker didn't bake the cake. The owners of the wedding chapel didn't marry LGBT. The photographer never shot the weddings. The better course of action rather than lawsuits is to simply take your business elsewhere. Religious people, and this goes for all religions are gullible sheep. They are BELIEVERS. Which is a scary thing.

  7. #27
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Except they aren't discriminating.

    They would sell to homosexuals its just some items they won't make.
    That is discrimination. If you refuse to sell to certain customers any product that you sell to other customers, that is, by definition, discrimination. It would be no different than a restaurant refusing to serve a black person certain dishes on their menu, because they don't think black people deserve to eat those dishes. Just letting them in the door does not prevent their business practice from being discriminatory.

  8. #28
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    That is discrimination. If you refuse to sell to certain customers any product that you sell to other customers, that is, by definition, discrimination. It would be no different than a restaurant refusing to serve a black person certain dishes on their menu, because they don't think black people deserve to eat those dishes. Just letting them in the door does not prevent their business practice from being discriminatory.
    They don't sell gay wedding cakes to straight customers.

    They cater to heterosexual couples, that is their business and their market, they don't have to cater to any other group if they choose not to.

    Open a dog grooming shop for poodles for instance.

    A guy comes in with a German Shepard and tells you to groom him.

    You say no, you only do poodles.

    Is that now discrimination?

    If this shop has never made a gay wedding cake for anyone else there can be no discrimination because as you pointed out, you can't do something for some people and not others.
    Last edited by Spookycolt; 4th December 2017 at 06:47 PM.

  9. #29
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Except they aren't discriminating.

    They would sell to homosexuals its just some items they won't make.
    That is discrimination. If you refuse to sell to certain customers any product that you sell to other customers, that is, by definition, discrimination. It would be no different than a restaurant refusing to serve a black person certain dishes on their menu, because they don't think black people deserve to eat those dishes. Just letting them in the door does not prevent their business practice from being discriminatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    That is their choice as a business.

    They are a business that offers a specific service and gay wedding cakes are not one of the things they offer.
    There is no such thing as a "gay" wedding cake. A wedding cake is a wedding cake. The same ingredients are required, regardless of who is eating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Its like going to Barnes and Noble and demanding they sell you a porn magazine, they say they don't sell that type of material there and you yell discrimination.
    No, it's not. Because Barnes and Nobles doesn't carry porn magazines. They don't carry porn magazines for "certain couple". They simply do not carry porn magazines. You keep trying to pretend that a "gay wedding cake", and a "traditional wedding cake" are two different products, requiring different ingredients to produce. They're not, and they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    If you want a gay wedding cake then go to a place that makes gay wedding cakes.

    There is absolutely no way this bakery loses this case.

    You can't force a business to provide a service they don't want to.
    Still pretending that "gay" wedding cakes are a thing. They aren't.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 4th December 2017 at 06:50 PM.
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  10. #30
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    They don't sell gay wedding cakes to straight customers.
    That's because there's no such thing as a "gay" wedding cake. The couple didn't ask for a "gay" wedding cake. They asked for a wedding cake for their same-sex marriage.
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