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Thread: Opponents in LGBT case agree: It's not about wedding cake

  1. #31
    Galactic Ruler Spookycolt's Avatar
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    That is discrimination. If you refuse to sell to certain customers any product that you sell to other customers, that is, by definition, discrimination. It would be no different than a restaurant refusing to serve a black person certain dishes on their menu, because they don't think black people deserve to eat those dishes. Just letting them in the door does not prevent their business practice from being discriminatory.
    They don't sell gay wedding cakes to anyone.

    Its like saying a car shop that specializes on corvettes must fix any type of car because they fix cars.

    That's not how it works.

    This place makes cakes for heterosexuals and that's it, that's their business.

    No, it's not. Because Barnes and Nobles doesn't carry porn magazines. They don't carry porn magazines for"certain couple". You keep trying to pretend that a "gay wedding cake", and a "traditional wedding cake" are two different products, requiring different ingredients to produce. They're not, and they don't.
    Its a service they provide for a heterosexual wedding, not a gay wedding.

    That is the demographic they have chosen to market to. You cannot walk in there and tell them they now have to work in other markets also.

  2. #32
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    They don't sell gay wedding cakes to anyone.

    Its like saying a car shop that specializes on corvettes must fix any type of car because they fix cars.

    That's not how it works.

    This place makes cakes for heterosexuals and that's it, that's their business.
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GAY WEDDING CAKES, and you constantly pretending there is does not make it so.



    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Its a service they provide for a heterosexual wedding, not a gay wedding.

    That is the demographic they have chosen to market to. You cannot walk in there and tell them they now have to work in other markets also.
    And that is what makes it discrimination. You do not get to refuse to provide a service to someone, just because you don't like what they are doing. If they provide wedding cakes to any of their customers, they are required to provide them to all of their customers. Would you be okay with them refusing to provide wedding cakes to interracial couples, because they felt that interracial marriage was "wrong", and not "traditional"?

  3. #33
    New Member Pureinheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgressivePatriot View Post
    You would say that Christians have the right to discriminate just because they are Christians?
    I thought you people were all about the right to 'choose'... guess not

  4. #34
    New Member Pureinheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post


    And that is what makes it discrimination. You do not get to refuse to provide a service to someone, just because you don't like what they are doing. If they provide wedding cakes to any of their customers, they are required to provide them to all of their customers. Would you be okay with them refusing to provide wedding cakes to interracial couples, because they felt that interracial marriage was "wrong", and not "traditional"?
    In a free world and so-called free enterprise YES YOU DO.

    Why didn't this gay couple go somewhere else? Nah, this is about forcing their views on others. Period.

  5. #35
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pureinheart View Post
    In a free world and so-called free enterprise YES YOU DO.
    No, you don't. Actually, I guess we're about to find out if you do. If the Supreme Court rules in favour of your bakers, then it will mean that you're right, and you do get to discriminate, based on the private choices of your customers. I don't think that is how this is going to go. I think the Court is going to recognise that business owners do not get to discriminate in their business practices based on their personal beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pureinheart View Post
    Why didn't this gay couple go somewhere else? Nah, this is about forcing their views on others. Period.
    Why should they have to. "Why didn't that Negro just go to a restaurant that was willing to serve his kind?" No one is trying to force these bakers to have any view. This isn't about the views of the bakers, but their behaviour. You guys on the right always seem to think that behaviour and opinion are inextricably connected. They aren't. You can believe whatever you like. You can even behave how ever you like, based on that belief, in. Your. Private. Life. What you can't do is discriminate in your business practiceagainst any group of customers based on those beliefs.

    You seem to think that Constitutional protections of personal rights extends to protections of business practice. The Civil Rights act of 1964 made it abundantly clear that they don't.
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  6. #36
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Except they aren't discriminating.
    They are absolutely discriminating. If the prospective customers were not gay, the issue would not have come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    They would sell to homosexuals its just some items they won't make.
    That is what "discriminating" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    They are a business that offers a specific service and gay wedding cakes are not one of the things they offer.
    Are wedding cakes going around having sexual relations with other wedding cakes of the same sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spookycolt View Post
    Its like going to Barnes and Noble and demanding they sell you a porn magazine, they say they don't sell that type of material there and you yell discrimination.
    It is nothing like that. In that scenario, no one gets porn from B&N. There is no difference in the wedding cake, only the sexual identity of the prospective customers. In reality, it is no different than refusing to serve people based on skin color, or having an interracial marriage.

  7. #37
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pureinheart View Post
    [T]his is about forcing their views on others.
    No, it is not. That is what the business owners wish to do. They are free to hold what views they wish, but practices are regulable if the regulation meets certain criteria, and those criteria are met in this case.

    If there is any case law supporting a contrary position? The case law I am familiar with supports the customers, not the business owners.

  8. #38
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    No, it is not. That is what the business owners wish to do. They are free to hold what views they wish, but practices are regulable if the regulation meets certain criteria, and those criteria are met in this case.

    If there is any case law supporting a contrary position? The case law I am familiar with supports the customers, not the business owners.
    The fringe right is still pissed off about that hateful 1964 Civil Rights Legislation it seems...

  9. #39
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    I cook says when they cook they are creating art. I contractor builds a house he says that is his art. I can go on and on. What is art? A cake, a building, a painting, a meal? If he sells something to the public he can not discriminate to whom he sells. If he doesn't sell to the public then he can do what he pleases with his art=give it away to just straight people. This is a pretty clear cut case. If a Nazi came in he would have to make a cake for them too. You don't get to pick and chose your customers.
    Last edited by Eve1; 4th December 2017 at 08:24 PM.

  10. #40
    Member Robert Urbanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    The customers did not request anything that the baker was not prepared to make - for other customers. There was no discussion of any customization.
    According to the linked article:

    Phillips still stoutly defends his 2012 rebuff of Mullins and Craig, saying he offered to sell them virtually any of his baked goods except a custom cake for their wedding.
    "I don't create custom designs for events or messages that conflict with my conscience," he said at the recent rally of his supporters. "I don't create cakes for Halloween, bachelor or bachelorette parties, and anti-American cakes. I've turned down a cake order for an anti-LGBT message."
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