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Thread: Opponents in LGBT case agree: It's not about wedding cake

  1. #61
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    So if a highly skilled woodworker with an established business and reputation was asked to do the set dressing for an Inauguration reception for the guy he voted against, he could be forced to because the set dressing is temporary? Sorry, but you guys have jumped the shark on this one. Cake is not a nutritious commodity. And an artist has the right to create the art that aligns with his own conscience. So does any business owner who produces anything that has messaging built into it. From custom T-Shirt designs to Advertising Copy to Custom Cakes, any business owner has the right to refuse to do custom work that violates conscience.
    Yeah. Set dressing is construction work, nothing more. The tee-shirt silk screener is an entirely different thing. They wanted a specific message printed on the tee-shirt. Tell me, other than, "A wedding is happening here", what specific message is "created" by a wedding cake? You bigotry apologists...no. You know what? Bigots. You bigots - and you can bitch that "HEY! I'm not a bigot!" all you want; you know what people are who defend bigotry? Bigots! You don't want to be called a bigot, then quit defending bigotry. Now, as I was saying, you bigots want to keep pretending that a wedding cake sends some secret message beyond, "There is a wedding happening here," It doesn't.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 5th December 2017 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #62
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmiller1610 View Post
    If it is custom work and is artistic enough to imply messaging or endorsement, of course you do. I disagree with this being a religious issue. It's a question of the rights of a business owner.

    If I run a T-shirt printing business, can I be forced to create a shirt that violates my politics? my team loyalties? my religion?

    The answer in all three cases is No.
    The only message sent by a wedding cake is "There is a wedding happening here," Period. You can't compare this to the tee-shirt printer who was asking the printers to print a specific message on their tee-shjirts. Now, unless this couple specifically wanted the cake to have icing saying "Heterosexuals suck ball" - they didn't; they didn't even ask for any specific design - then the two are not comparable. So where does this end? How about hair stylists? Are they artists? Should they be allowed to refuse to do business with homosexuals, as "artists"? How about house painters? Hey! Chefs are artists! So, restaurants should be able to refuse service to gays, right? Just where do you think the line should be drawn? Or, do you think it shouldn't? Do you think everyone should be allowed to refuse their services to gays?

    So, you really want to defend marginalising gays just because you don't happen to agree with their choice of who to love? Christianity at its best.

  3. #63
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    congratulations on your meaningless and fucking juvenile reply, I knew you had it in you.

    And if he does win then anyone anywhere can ignore law and discriminate. If Alabama elects Moore I can put a sign in my window that says I don't serve anyone from alabama because child molestation is against my religion and they obviously support it. I can't tell if you voted for him but can't take that chance so I don't serve any of them. Money changers are bad too so if you work for a bank I won't serve you. Anyone who happens to be an atheist or doesn't believe in Jesus need not come in either, my religion says I cannot patronize heathens. The list is endless and every one of them is just as fucking stupid as this baker refusing service to a homosexual.
    The point is that it will be a hollow victory because this guy is still not going to bake them a cake. Believers are scary people. They are more afraid of being damned to hell then they are of someone fining them for refusing to bake a cake. This baker has actually stopped baking wedding cakes. He bakes all other kinds of cakes but does not bake wedding cakes. You think that my reply is juvenile but my reply is dead on accurate. You can win all the court cases that you want but you can't make people put aside their religious beliefs because you won a court case. You can't make a photographer shoot the same sex wedding. You can't make a wedding chapel minister marry you. You can't make the baker bake the cake.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    Christians never had the right to break the law before? The baker is not being denied his right to practice his religion because he has to follow established law in order to do it.
    Everyone seems to understand the Establishment clause in the 1st amendment, maybe sometimes, the Free Exercise clause gets lost in the mix with much less attention. Could it be argued that the established law violates the Free Exercise clause of the first amendment, just asking. I am waiting for a KKK type of organization finding a black owned business and asks them to supply a custom made product for an event. It's my perspective that any business person that would refuse business is an idiot and would not want them for a partner. Gay, straight or a combination, in each case their money is green.

  5. #65
    Chaos in fourteen lines Minotaur's Avatar
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    If they rule for him there is no doubt that it approves discrimination and that can't be controlled. As an aside it should be noted that this particular baker's cake decorating talent is more than a little questionable so someone should sue the happy couple for poor taste:


  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    The point is that it will be a hollow victory because this guy is still not going to bake them a cake.
    How is it a hollow victory if it prevents this guy or others from doing it again? your comment makes as much sense as "Why prosecute this guy for murder, the victim is still dead".

    Believers are scary people. They are more afraid of being damned to hell then they are of someone fining them for refusing to bake a cake. This baker has actually stopped baking wedding cakes. He bakes all other kinds of cakes but does not bake wedding cakes.
    Great, can't wait for someone to go in and ask for a rainbow birthday cake for his gay friends.

    You think that my reply is juvenile but my reply is dead on accurate.
    No question it's juvenile, it's fucking stupid too. You are saying whats the sense in prosecuting someone for discrimination if they have already done it?

    You can win all the court cases that you want but you can't make people put aside their religious beliefs because you won a court case.
    Maybe you can convince some of the fucking bigoted and homophobic bakers that they best not break the law.

    You can't make a photographer shoot the same sex wedding.
    If you hired someone to shoot your wedding and they show up and find out it's a gay wedding and they refuse you can sue the shit out of them.


    You can't make the baker bake the cake.
    Sure can sue the shit out of him, ruin his business and paint him to be a fucking scumbag.

  7. #67
    THE PUNDIT DemoWhip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzling Evidence View Post
    I can't give rides to Christians -- I'm pagan and it's against everything I stand for.
    And if you were a doctor I suspect no one could honestly blame you for not going to the aid or helping someone whose religion was not what you stood for, huh?

  8. #68
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czernobog View Post
    The only message sent by a wedding cake is "There is a wedding happening here," Period. ...
    Technically, even this isn't true. Once a customer commissions a wedding cake, how it's used is no affair of the baker. Whether it's eaten at a wedding, snacked on at a somewhat weird Superbowl party, or rolled around in during a porn shoot ... it's the property of the customers to do with as they please. The only limitations are the lines of legality... for instance, owning the wedding cake doesn't give you the right to drop it from an overpass onto moving cars.
    Thanks from Czernobog and Ian Jeffrey

  9. #69
    Veteran Member Czernobog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Technically, even this isn't true. Once a customer commissions a wedding cake, how it's used is no affair of the baker. Whether it's eaten at a wedding, snacked on at a somewhat weird Superbowl party, or rolled around in during a porn shoot ... it's the property of the customers to do with as they please. The only limitations are the lines of legality... for instance, owning the wedding cake doesn't give you the right to drop it from an overpass onto moving cars.
    Well...okay. I suppose you have a point. My point was that there is no secret, "We love gays" message in a wedding cake.
    Thanks from Djinn and boontito

  10. #70
    THE PUNDIT DemoWhip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    That's what these idiots seem to believe. All you have to do is say I'm practicing my constitutional right to religion so I don't have to follow the law. I have interpreted my bible to say homosexuals are an abomination to the world and I was just doing my part by running over that gay person, what's the problem officer?
    And of course that would create a far more dangerous "law" and government that would far surpass a Theocracy. But it does appear that many right-wingers would be ready, willing and able to embrace that just to get their way. Forget about being religious. It's all about their having POWER over Gays and to hell with anything and everything else. HEIL HITLER!!
    Last edited by DemoWhip; 5th December 2017 at 10:09 AM.

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