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Thread: President Trump to Recognize Jerusalem as Capital

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Israel doesn't want to piss off the Jordanians, Egyptians and the Saudis. I don't think even Netanyahu wants to do that, though he's on his way out anyway ... Israel cannot afford, on the domestic political front, to say "we're fine with not getting U.S. recognition of Israeli Jerusalem." But it certainly does not want to fundamentally destabilize its tenuous ties to the Arabs --- things are a little bit closer with Jordan --- in the name of seeing that happen.
    Are you trying to suggest that Netanyahu doesn't want President Trump to recognize Jerusalem?

  2. #52
    Civis americanus borealis Singularity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Are you trying to suggest that Netanyahu doesn't want President Trump to recognize Jerusalem?
    Sure he'd like for that to happen and now that it is apparently happening, he's going to publicly celebrate it, but after that passes, his diplomats are going to not get any sleep for about a week in Riyadh, Amman and Cairo, trying to find a way to defuse this. The days of regional war are gone --- 1973 was too terrible for all sides to contemplate repeating. But they need each other the same as the U.S. needs Canada and Mexico, moreso on matters of business and security really. And this business is rocking that boat in ways that none of them need.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    There are more and more scholars who are starting to question whether the current Jews are in fact the descendants of the Israelites.
    Please elaborate. Maybe even start a new thread on this subject.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Sure he'd like for that to happen and now that it is apparently happening, he's going to publicly celebrate it, but I after that passes, his diplomats are going to not get any sleep for about a week in Riyadh, Amman and Cairo, trying to find a way to defuse this. The days of regional war are gone --- 1973 was too terrible for all sides to contemplate repeating. But they need each other the same as the U.S. needs Canada and Mexico, moreso on matters of business and security really.
    Well then your earlier comment doesn't make much sense to me then.

    You can't make the argument that Israel doesn't want to piss off Jordanians therefore we shouldn't recognize Jerusalem while the elected leader of Israel wants us to recognize Jerusalem.

    So obviously Israel is not as afraid of pissing off the King of Jordon as you are making out. Besides, I'm sure the King will get over it.

    Trump ran on this anyway and said he would do this if he was elected. So now he's doing it. That's how our Republic is suppose to work.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 5th December 2017 at 08:25 PM.

  5. #55
    Civis americanus borealis Singularity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Well then your earlier comment doesn't make much sense to me then.

    You can't make the argument that Israel doesn't want to piss off Jordanians therefore we shouldn't recognize Jerusalem while the leader of the country wants us to recognize Jerusalem. That sounds like a false dichotomy to me.

    Obviously Israel is not as afraid of pissing off the King of Jordon as you are making out. I'm sure the King will get over it.
    It's not very complicated: Israel wants recognition of Jerusalem, and will tell the whole world about it, but it does not want conflict with its neighbors, who cannot PUBLICLY accept that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel --- if they try their governments will collapse and will not be replaced by anything good. So everyone agreed to look the other way and get down to business on other fronts, and so it has been for years.

    But if the "leader of the free world" takes it on himself to remind everyone about it, then that gets pretty hard. And that has consequences nobody really wants.
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  6. #56
    Civis americanus borealis Singularity's Avatar
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    Trump ran on this anyway and said he would do this if he was elected. So now he's doing it.
    Virtually nobody voted on this issue. And democracy doesn't directly govern strategic foreign policy, it never has. That's why members of Congress aren't permitted to open negotiations with foreign states on their own, that's why we have terms of office to handle things the public doesn't pay attention to on a day-to-day basis.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    It's not very complicated: Israel wants recognition of Jerusalem, and will tell the whole world about it, but it does not want conflict with its neighbors, who cannot PUBLICLY accept that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel --- if they try their governments will collapse and will not be replaced by anything good. So everyone agreed to look the other way and get down to business on other fronts.

    But if the "leader of the free world" takes it on himself to remind everyone about it, then that gets pretty hard. And that has consequences nobody really wants.
    I know it's not complicated.

    Israel wants us to recognize Jerusalem regardless if it annoys the king of Jordan or not.

    And as I added in my last comment - President Trump ran on this and said he would do this if we was elected. So now he's doing it. That's how our Republic is suppose to work.

    If Israel truly was so worried about annoying the King of Jordon with this I'm sure all Netanyahu would have to do is pick up the phone and tell Trump not to do it. But he isn't - because the truth is Israel wants it.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 5th December 2017 at 08:32 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Virtually nobody voted on this issue. And democracy doesn't directly govern strategic foreign policy, it never has. That's why members of Congress aren't permitted to open negotiations with foreign states on their own, that's why we have terms of office to handle things the public doesn't pay attention to on a day-to-day basis.
    The President made no secret that he intended to do this while he was running for President. So obviously there are a lot of Americans like myself who see no problem with this else he would not have been elected in the first place.

    The President plays a huge part in our foreign policy and his or her foreign agenda is always a key component of any Presidential Campaign.
    Last edited by Jeremy; 5th December 2017 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangermouse View Post
    It's fucking madness, throwing a match in a tinderbox for shits and giggles.
    Trump just likes to burn things down because he has no skill to do much else, but deceive and rip people off.

    He's the world's 21st Century Schizoid Man



    What better way for a super narcissist to constantly gain attention for themselves, but to burn things down.

    There are long established reasons for keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv and one of them is keeping the peace, as fragile and broken as it is and has been.

    Plus, moving the embassy means what, with regard to cost and who pays for it?

    Gotta love the "conservative" deficit and debt hawks that spend taxpayer money needlessly while raking others over the coals for requesting Americans pitch in to pay for its expenses.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/17/iraq.usa

    Report Projects Higher Operational Costs for U.S. Embassy in Iraq


    Maybe one of the POTUS' family companies will find a way to get a cut of the cost for the move.


    How many times are Americans going to keep buying into this sort of BS, before catching on to the scam?
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  10. #60
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Good.

    Jews settled that land long before anyone. Before Islam was even a religion. Israel and the Jews have their most Holy site there we predates any Muslims by hundreds of years. Israel says it is their Capitol, so therefor it is. We don't hold any other country to some ridiculous standard.
    Is Israel a theocracy? If not, then what does Judaism have to do with anything. If so, then what's the problem with any theocratic nation, unless you're no less anti-Muslim than anyone might be anti-Semitic, in the sense that Semites were redefined to include ONLY Jews, if you include the wider definition, if you have a problem with Muslims, you might also be considered having anti-Semitic tendencies.

    If you're going with a "they were there first" rights sort of thing, the First People of North and South America settled those continents "LONG before anyone". Would you apply your same "logic"? Would you suggest that they should have the right to take back what was taken from them, much more recently than the Jews lost the Land of Israel, before they were able, ONLY with the help of other nations, to regain a foothold in their former region and then declare "statehood" as a nation, ALSO supported by other nations. Would the First People of the Americans enjoy the same help? If they did, would they still be supported if they began to extend their boundaries beyond what was recognized by the nations that supported their regaining an area as their ancestral "homeland"?

    If you and others would like to suggest history began and ended with Jewish "ownership" of a geographical region, then please apply the same premise to all lands taken out of the hands of the "originals" or aboriginal people, across the globe and provide the same aid given Jews to reinhabit/resettle lands that they lost long, long before some decided they wanted to retake "their" land.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...Land_of_Israel


    There is not only the issue of the definition of "Semite", but the Abrahamic relationships and origins of religions that at various times in history have lived peacefully side by side or at one another's throat both conditions changing and affected by various events sects and subdivisions of the related branches of the Abrahamic tree.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

    It is quite amusing to see Evangelicals "suddenly" (in a relative sense) cozy up to Jews, (to the discomfort of some Jews) when American and European history is full of examples of "Christians" persecuting Jews, being one of the reasons the nation of Israel exists today and for the Arab/Israeli conflict.

    The following too, from more than 100 years ago, is also a reason for the ongoing conflict, as nothing in essence has changed, with the way humans in that region are treating other humans, then seeming to wonder why their actions are cause for animosity against one another and against their own actions, by the world.

    "Ahad Ha'am travelled frequently to Palestine and published reports about the progress of Jewish settlement there. They were generally glum. They reported on hunger, on Arab dissatisfaction and unrest, on unemployment, and on people leaving Palestine. In an essay[6] soon after his 1891 journey to the area he warned against the 'great error', noticeable among Jewish settlers, of treating the fellahin with contempt, of regarding 'all Arabs a(s) savages of the desert, a people similar to a donkey'."[7][8]

    "Ahad Ha'am made his first trip to Palestine in 1891. The trip was prompted by concern that the Jaffa members of B'nai Moshe were mishandling land purchases for prospective immigrants and contributing to soaring land prices. His reputation as Zionism's major internal critic has its roots in the essay "A Truth from Eretz Yisrael" published in pamphlet form shortly after his visit in 1891."[9]

    "In 1891, Ahad Ha'am wrote about his perceptions of Palestine: "We who live abroad are accustomed to believe that almost all Eretz Yisrael is now uninhabited desert and whoever wishes can buy land there as he pleases. But this is not true. It is very difficult to find in the land [ha'aretz] cultivated fields that are not used for planting. Only those sand fields or stone mountains that would require the investment of hard labour and great expense to make them good for planting remain uncultivated and that's because the Arabs do not like working too much in the present for a distant future. Therefore, it is very difficult to find good land for cattle. And not only peasants, but also rich landowners, are not selling good land so easily...We who live abroad are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all wild desert people who, like donkeys, neither see nor understand what is happening around them. But this is a grave mistake. The Arab, like all the Semites, is sharp minded and shrewd. All the townships of Syria and Eretz Yisrael are full of Arab merchants who know how to exploit the masses and keep track of everyone with whom they deal – the same as in Europe. The Arabs, especially the urban elite, see and understand what we are doing and what we wish to do on the land, but they keep quiet and pretend not to notice anything. For now, they do not consider our actions as presenting a future danger to them. … But, if the time comes that our people's life in Eretz Yisrael will develop to a point where we are taking their place, either slightly or significantly, the natives are not going to just step aside so easily."[10]

    "In his book "Wrestling with Zion," he urged the Jews "not to provoke the anger of the native people by doing them wrong...we should be cautious in our dealings with a foreign people among whom we returned to live, to handle these people with love and respect and, needless to say, with justice and good judgment. And what do our brothers do? Exactly the opposite! They were slaves in their Diasporas, and suddenly they find themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that only a country like Turkey [the Ottoman Empire] can offer. This sudden change has planted despotic tendencies in their hearts, as always happens to former slaves ['eved ki yimlokh – when a slave becomes king – Proverbs 30:22]. They deal with the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamefully for no sufficient reason, and even boast about their actions. There is no one to stop the flood and put an end to this despicable and dangerous tendency. Our brothers indeed were right when they said that the Arab only respects he who exhibits bravery and courage. But when these people feel that the law is on their rival's side and, even more so, if they are right to think their rival's actions are unjust and oppressive, then, even if they are silent and endlessly reserved, they keep their anger in their hearts. And these people will be revengeful like no other."[11]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahad_Ha%27am

    Ha'am not only observed, but recognized the crux of what is ongoing, to this day and like some Jews, unlike some others, voiced strong thoughts about it and foretold of what the world has witnessed as a result of the consequences of actions of those, he observed.
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 7th December 2017 at 07:15 AM.
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