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Thread: Trump's Jerusalem fallout: Hamas leader calls for new 'intifada'

  1. #31
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Not relevant. Jordan, which used to hold that part of the city, lost it fair and square in a war that it was responsible for starting (along with a bunch of allies who also lost). Israel did not fight a war of conquest, but one of self-defense. Telling everyone to go home, no-harm/no-foul, makes no sense. This was the consequence of starting a war and losing.
    You are using basically the same argument as Putin does for the similarly "preemptive" invasion and takeover of Crimea from Ukraine: the new regime in Kiev was going to attack the ethnic Russian population there and also establish American and NATO military bases. So, they went in, and preemptively seized the whole place, to prevent this.

    Same logic
    Thanks from labrea

  2. #32
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    I guess you'd have to ask the families of the 18,000 Israel killed in the 6 day war it there was little impact.
    How many of those 18,000 people were civilians? Egypt was mounting a military assault against Israel. Israel stopped them with few or no civilian casualties. I'm not going to blame a military force for attacking another military force. That's what militaries are for.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    How many of those 18,000 people were civilians? Egypt was mounting a military assault against Israel. Israel stopped them with few or no civilian casualties. I'm not going to blame a military force for attacking another military force. That's what militaries are for.
    PARK CITY, Utah (JTA) — In the wake of Israel’s seemingly miraculous triumph in the Six Day War in 1967, the country’s victorious soldiers were lionized as heroes.

    But in private, even just one week after the conflict, many of them didn’t feel that way. One describes feeling sick to his stomach in battle and collapsing into a trench.

    Another talks about watching an old Arab man evacuated from his house.

    “I had an abysmal feeling that I was evil,” the soldier says.

    The voices come from tapes made just weeks after the war’s conclusion and now presented, some of them for the first time, in the powerful new documentary “Censored Voices,” which premiered January 24 at the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah.

    Piece by piece and story by story, they tear apart the heroic narrative of Israel’s great victory in favor of something far messier, more chaotic and more human.

    The tapes were made by fellow kibbutzniks Avraham Shapira and the novelist Amos Oz, who were driven by a sense that amid the triumphalism, more ambivalent emotions were not being expressed.

    “It was a sadness that could only be felt in the kibbutz because we were living so close to each other,” Shapira recalls in the film.

    Traveling from kibbutz to kibbutz with a borrowed reel-to-reel tape recorder, Shapira and Oz convinced fellow veterans to open up about their feelings, their memories and their misgivings from the war. But when they moved to publish what they had gathered, the Israeli government censored 70 percent of the material. Shapira published the remaining 30 percent in his book “The Seventh Day: Soldiers’ Talk about the Six-Day War.”

    Now, thanks to the efforts of director Mor Loushy, who convinced Shapira to give her access to the tapes, all of the soldiers’ stories can be heard. Films in Israel can be subject to censorship, but according to producer Hilla Medalia, “We were able to release the film as we wanted it.”

    The voices from the tapes are combined to great effect with archival footage, photographs, contemporary news accounts and film of the now-aged veterans to tell the story of the war and its aftermath.

    What emerges is a vivid portrait of the war as it was lived by those who fought in it. In the tradition of soldier’s-eye narratives like “A Farewell to Arms” and “The Red Badge of Courage,” the movie allows the soldiers to depict themselves as confused, selfishly afraid, often stupefied by the sight of death and dying, and morally troubled when they encounter the enemy as fellow humans.

    There is little doubt that prior to the war, the soldiers saw the build-up of hostile Arab forces on their borders as an existential threat.

    “There was a feeling it would be a Holocaust,” one says.

    Yet once the battle was joined, the soldiers find themselves besieged by a welter of conflicting emotions. They watch their comrades die. They feel terror. They find themselves killing.

    “I was impressed at the calmness with which I was shooting,” says one veteran, recalling himself gunning down Egyptian soldiers. “I felt like I was at an amusement park.”

    The veterans also graphically describe multiple instances of Israeli soldiers — including themselves — shooting unarmed soldiers and civilians.

    “Several times we captured guys, positioned them and just killed them,” one veteran recalls.

    They also recall the shock and anguish of being forced to confront the humanity of the men they were killing. One tells of sorting through the papers of a dead Egyptian officer and finding a picture of his two children on the beach. Another recounts captured Egyptian soldiers pleading for water and mercy, and frightened teenage soldiers who soil their pants. One watches Arab families carrying their belongings from Jericho and thinks of his own family fleeing the Holocaust.

    Even the recapture of the Old City of Jerusalem and the Western Wall evokes mixed feelings far from the iconic images of conquering soldiers weeping for joy. One participant says that when a shofar blows at the wall, it “sounded like a pig’s grunt.” Others are troubled by the sense that they are conquering not soldiers in the Old City but civilians in their homes.

    “It wasn’t a freed city, it was an occupied city,” one says.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/long-s...n-six-day-war/
    I guess you weren't there.
    Last edited by labrea; 7th December 2017 at 08:24 PM.

  4. #34
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    It would have been nice if Palestinian leaders had said “The US President is acting like a child so we will act like adults and show the world”

    Instead of “The US President is acting like a child so we’ll act like a pack of rabid hyenas”

  5. #35
    "Mr. Original". the watchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    It would have been nice if Palestinian leaders had said “The US President is acting like a child so we will act like adults and show the world”

    Instead of “The US President is acting like a child so we’ll act like a pack of rabid hyenas”
    it's what Trump does best. Cause a bunch of chaos.

  6. #36
    Council Member Djinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    I guess you weren't there.
    "Yet once the battle was joined, the soldiers find themselves besieged by a welter of conflicting emotions. They watch their comrades die. They feel terror. They find themselves killing."
    Read that quote. And tell me how it could not have been accurately ascribed to ANY soldier, from ANY war.

    They also recall the shock and anguish of being forced to confront the humanity of the men they were killing. One tells of sorting through the papers of a dead Egyptian officer and finding a picture of his two children on the beach. Another recounts captured Egyptian soldiers pleading for water and mercy, and frightened teenage soldiers who soil their pants. One watches Arab families carrying their belongings from Jericho and thinks of his own family fleeing the Holocaust.
    Yes - war is hell. Soldiers get killed. However, it's a matter of record that the number of civilian casualties was extremely low, and the Israeli strike targeted the Egyptian military with unprecedented surgical precision. I'd be deeply concerned if soldiers didn't have such emotions when reflecting on the brutality of combat.

    However, the one word that wasn't spoken by any of those interviewed was "regret."

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