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Thread: Walmart uses tax cuts to raise minimum wage

  1. #131
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    It truly is a race to the bottom.

    The jobs that somebody here said would be "eliminated" by globalization of course are not eliminated, just outsourced to people without labor laws to protect them. We compete with them now, directly. Places where the enforcement is suspect, where children are working.

    Great. Awesome. Cool. Why should a company that is pulling profits out of a market pay the costs of doing business in that market? Why pay employees what the economy demands for them to live, why pay their taxes, which support the infrastructure, the government, the society that is so highly functioning and delivering such huge paychecks for the company? When you can just fuck over everybody and everything at every chance, because that's fair and right, since, hey, it's called competition. When you can outsource your labor as much as possible to places where workers are without recourse, have zero protections, are not even allowed to look for ways to increase leverage?

    Minimum wages are not the answer. Fixing the market so that real jobs that grown-ups are needed to do actually pay is the answer. Once Walmart is the only employer in your town, they can pay whatever they want. And they will spend a lot of money and time to get to that point, because it's worth it.

    Another 10 years they'll be paying their employees in Walmart scrip.
    Thanks from MaryAnne

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    It truly is a race to the bottom.

    The jobs that somebody here said would be "eliminated" by globalization of course are not eliminated, just outsourced to people without labor laws to protect them.
    The domestic aspect of outsourced jobs is what I was referring to. It's eliminated domestically. When technological solutions develop, they're eliminated entirely.

    We compete with them now, directly. Places where the enforcement is suspect, where children are working.
    Yep.

    Great. Awesome. Cool. Why should a company that is pulling profits out of a market pay the costs of doing business in that market? Why pay employees what the economy demands
    The economy doesn't demand it. It's no-skill, minimal-effort-required labor, and we have a glut of it. The economy does not "demand" they get paid anything.

    When you can just fuck over everybody and everything at every chance, because that's fair and right, since, hey, it's called competition.
    Low wage jobs are not "fucking" anyone over. People accept those jobs because their alternative is already considerably worse. That's the real problem. Not your bitching and moaning about wage rates.

    But this thread illuminates (again) the entitlement mentality that you and the rest of the American left wing have baked into your brains. People's reality is bad when no one wants their labor. Their life is often terrible because they can't buy the things they need and they can't sell what services they have available. So when a job comes open, they plead and beg and say "pick me, I'll do everything you want and be so happy to have this job!" and then the moment they are selected for the job, I mean the instant they actually start working, they turn an abrupt 180 and immediately begin angrily declaring how "fucked over" they are. One minute so happy and yearning so badly for this job, the very next minute bitching about how underpaid they are. That's bullshit.

    Refer back to my example of 100 people competing for 2 openings that pay $10/hr. at 20 hrs/week. While you wet your pants screaming about the injustice of $10 an hour, what about the other fucking 98 people? The real problem is whatever number of those 100 applicants are full adults, not students, fully educated, have college degrees and student loans, girlfriend/wife pregnant, fully competent, available to work 40 hours per week or more, yet are so lacking professional opportunity that they're desperate for this $10/hour, 20 hour/week entry level job for which only two openings exist. This problem is not solved or even remotely addressed by forcing that company to pay those two lucky employees $20/hr instead of $10. The problem is the broader population of people for whom no employment opportunity even exists, despite their general abilities and willingness to work. And that's just one layer of our problems. And we can't magically force employers to want or need to employ them.

    Yet you remain fixated on rabidly attacking corporations for paying less than you personally feel like they should have to pay. Talk about near-sighted.

    When you can outsource your labor as much as possible to places where workers are without recourse, have zero protections, are not even allowed to look for ways to increase leverage?
    That's not a problem of our multinationals being allowed to do things. Companies are not our captive little bitches. If you're angry about how people are treated in these other countries that have quintillions of poor people who would be elated to work for virtually any wage, then that is another, much broader discussion about global economic and social development that shouldn't involve you needing to continue incessantly bitching about how evil American corporations are.

    Minimum wages are not the answer. Fixing the market
    What does that mean? That's like saying "make it all not be that way!"

    so that real jobs that grown-ups are needed to do actually pay is the answer.
    Government price-fixing for labor is not the answer either, because we are marching toward a post-labor economy anyway. You're just demanding we go farther to suppress the demand for labor, leaving more and more people out in the cold altogether. Only the luckiest will ever have jobs paying what you think they should be paid. The rest won't even be anyone's employee. So who's left for you to get so rabidly angry at regarding those people whose labor no one wants?
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 12th January 2018 at 09:57 AM.

  3. #133
    Member Idiocracat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallie Knoetze View Post
    Mr. Idiocrarat,

    Thank you for pointing out how important Walmart is for keeping this country's economy running.
    Amazon will phase them out in the near future.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Most employers are awful. I was very lucky that I finally found a good employer who I stayed with for over 20 years. Of course, it wasn't with a huge corporate entity where you are seen as little more than an automaton and they fervently wish you really were a robot.
    Some tasks that need to be completed are very literally robotic in their repetitive nature. Nothing soft and social and human is needed, just a very specific, literal, robotic task. If that's reality, why does that make the employer "awful?" As though it's the employer's responsibility to magically make the task not what it is? They probably wish the worker was a robot because they recognize it's not a fulfilling thing for a human to do and it is something that should be done by a robot.

    A lot of now-automated jobs absolutely sucked back in the so-called glory days of American employment (50s-70s) when humans had to do them. We didn't have robotic computerized mechanized automated systems back then, so someone literally had to do all those robotic factory worker tasks, same chair, same action, same motion, over and over again thousands of times per day, every single day. Those were inherently shit jobs, regardless of what they paid.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 12th January 2018 at 10:16 AM.

  5. #135
    Master political analyst Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Some tasks that need to be completed are very literally robotic in their repetitive nature. Nothing soft and social and human is needed, just a very specific, literal, robotic task. If that's reality, why does that make the employer "awful?" As though it's the employer's responsibility to magically make the task not what it is? They probably wish the worker was a robot because they recognize it's not a fulfilling thing for a human to do and it is something that should be done by a robot.

    A lot of now-automated jobs absolutely sucked back in the so-called glory days of American employment (50s-70s) when humans had to do them. We didn't have robotic computerized mechanized automated systems back then, so someone literally had to do all those robotic factory worker tasks, same chair, same action, same motion, over and over again thousands of times per day, every single day. Those were inherently shit jobs, regardless of what they paid.
    Yes, I had one of those jobs for a while back in the '60s, most boring mind numbing job ever, but it paid pretty well and didn't require a college degree. Now, machines do that sort of thing for us.

    Yet, it's more difficult to earn enough for food and shelter now than it was before we had all of those marvelous machines doing our work for us. Seems like life should be easier now, yet it isn't.

  6. #136
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    It truly is a race to the bottom.

    The jobs that somebody here said would be "eliminated" by globalization of course are not eliminated, just outsourced to people without labor laws to protect them. We compete with them now, directly. Places where the enforcement is suspect, where children are working.

    Great. Awesome. Cool. Why should a company that is pulling profits out of a market pay the costs of doing business in that market? Why pay employees what the economy demands for them to live, why pay their taxes, which support the infrastructure, the government, the society that is so highly functioning and delivering such huge paychecks for the company? When you can just fuck over everybody and everything at every chance, because that's fair and right, since, hey, it's called competition. When you can outsource your labor as much as possible to places where workers are without recourse, have zero protections, are not even allowed to look for ways to increase leverage?

    Minimum wages are not the answer. Fixing the market so that real jobs that grown-ups are needed to do actually pay is the answer. Once Walmart is the only employer in your town, they can pay whatever they want. And they will spend a lot of money and time to get to that point, because it's worth it.

    Another 10 years they'll be paying their employees in Walmart scrip.
    If you do not pay your employees they can not buy what you build!

    Even Henry Ford was smart enough t know that basic fact.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Yes, I had one of those jobs for a while back in the '60s, most boring mind numbing job ever, but it paid pretty well and didn't require a college degree. Now, machines do that sort of thing for us.

    Yet, it's more difficult to earn enough for food and shelter now than it was before we had all of those marvelous machines doing our work for us. Seems like life should be easier now, yet it isn't.
    Overall, it is easier, but we assess how easy or hard life is based on our feelings and thoughts as influenced by the economic environment, and the environment is extremely different now. And the 1960s in the U.S. will go down in history as one of the most anomalous economically expansionary times in human history, so in the grand scheme of things that is a kind of uncommon context from which to assess how we think jobs "should" be.

    On the longer timeline, the amount of grueling, torturous labor has decreased tremendously, worldwide, relative to say 300 years ago. Think about what things like mining and agriculture used to require of people back then. Technically, life is extremely easier than it used to be, but we assess our lives differently now. Most family farmers 300 years ago were abjectly third-world dirt poor by today's standards, and you worked your ass off, 100 hours per week for no wages from anyone, to be that dirt poor. Do you think those farmers thought to themselves the way modern liberals do, "I worked 100 hours this week, I deserve more material comforts and to not have to labor this much!" You'd be horse-whipped for acting entitled like that back then. Ironically though, it was in a strange way probably a fairly fulfilling, natural-feeling and peaceful existence, at times. Fast forward to the mid 1900s, a lot of factory jobs required nothing natural, peaceful or human whatsoever, just a repetitive, robotic task. You were no longer a farmer and shepherd, or a slave, rather you were now an utterly mindless cog. Of course, living standards increased dramatically during the mid-1900s and wages for even the simplest, dumbest, mind-numbingly repetitive tasks were unusually high, but that kind of job and wage cannot last long-term, and nor for that matter is it inherently a "good job" to have to do something that robotic forever, wages aside.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 12th January 2018 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaryAnne View Post
    If you do not pay your employees they can not buy what you build!

    Even Henry Ford was smart enough t know that basic fact.
    No company's goal is to succeed by having its employees buy what it sells. I've tried to educate liberals about how bad of an example Henry Ford is for their arguments on labor, but they can't grasp it. They don't get it.

  9. #139
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    A paper route? You mean delivering actual hard copies of the news to people who have already read that news online? In case you hadn't noticed, there aren't a lot of newspapers as such any more.
    Are you nuts? There are printed newspapers in nearly every county of this country. Can you name a major city without at least one? I gave a serious option of a way to make money if you canít work a traditional job.


    Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No company's goal is to succeed by having its employees buy what it sells. I've tried to educate liberals about how bad of an example Henry Ford is for their arguments on labor, but they can't grasp it. They don't get it.
    Mr. Neomlathusian,

    Quiet down. It's their lame, anachronistic platitude, and damn it, they are gonna stick with it

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