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Thread: Oklahoma's Revolution Didn't End with Teacher Strikes—It's Going Much Further

  1. #21
    Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Are you suggesting that if the teachers donated to republican politicians, pay raises would be forthcoming?

    Low pay for teachers has created a free market shortage in Oklahoma public schools.



    Pay for teachers in Oklahoma is just about $16,000 a year less than what Texas pays.
    If you read that posters submissions, you will find your answers. There is a certain predictability there, a pattern. If the person is indeed a pilot of a 777, then he or she is a union member. Oh the irony...
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Negotiations.
    Between whom and whom? Negotiations don't determine facts if the people in negotiations don't present facts. I have been in collective bargaining negotiations, and I can tell you that in my experience there was an enormous amount of non-fact-checked rhetoric and misleading if not false claims thrown around (by both sides of the table, actually). What could standardize this?

    So you think supply and demand and market forces have no bearing on the price of labor?
    Well of course they do, eventually, if price is too low, the employer can't fill vacancies.

    You want for it to be determined artificially?
    I want apples to apples comparison methods to be part of the equation when it comes to public sector work. Since the government decides to subject itself to unionized negotiation, monopoly representation, et cetera, and because government can ultimately decide unilaterally through its law making power what the compensation offered will be, government is going to be part of the equation, and government decides a lot of thing "by fiat," because government makes laws.

    Oklahoma won't pay enough to keep its schools open five days a week. Maybe you think we should get rid of compulsory K-12 education altogether? I mean....who needs that stuff, really?
    I acknowledged that maybe Oklahoma's teacher pay should come up. But that conclusion should be reached looking at Oklahoma's relative compensation in objective comparison to other places, rather than with outrage and rhetoric which fails to adjust for cost of living differences.

  3. #23
    The Republican Agenda HadEnough2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a777pilot View Post
    Additionally, I strongly advocate the banning of all public sector unions from having the ability to collectively bargain with government officials in regard to pay, benefits, and retirement.
    Yes, let's start with our Congress. Take the House Speaker Paul Ryan, retiring with a full pension. They aren't supported by a Union but our taxes pay for their benefits.
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  4. #24
    Veteran Member EnigmaO01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a777pilot View Post
    p.s., I have little, to no sympathy for these teachers.
    Some of us actually no how important education is. Others l like yourself do not.


  5. #25
    Veteran Member EnigmaO01's Avatar
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Between whom and whom?
    Between the people offering the service and the people paying for it.
    Negotiations don't determine facts if the people in negotiations don't present facts. I have been in collective bargaining negotiations, and I can tell you that in my experience there was an enormous amount of non-fact-checked rhetoric and misleading if not false claims thrown around (by both sides of the table, actually). What could standardize this?
    If we can have discussions where fact checking goes on at an internet message board, something tells me it can be done in a labor negotiation. And it's standardized because ultimately the whole thing can go to an arbiter, who will examine facts and claims.
    Well of course they do, eventually, if price is too low, the employer can't fill vacancies.
    Sure they can...they just do it with lower quality labor. Or they simply don't provide as much of the service, which is what happened in Oklahoma.
    I want apples to apples comparison methods to be part of the equation when it comes to public sector work. Since the government decides to subject itself to unionized negotiation, monopoly representation, et cetera, and because government can ultimately decide unilaterally through its law making power what the compensation offered will be, government is going to be part of the equation, and government decides a lot of thing "by fiat," because government makes laws.
    Great. Let's set all wages and prices this way. That supply and demand thing is just too unwieldy. Smart people like you and me can figure out what's a fair price for everything and then enforce that on everyone else.

    I acknowledged that maybe Oklahoma's teacher pay should come up. But that conclusion should be reached looking at Oklahoma's relative compensation in objective comparison to other places, rather than with outrage and rhetoric which fails to adjust for cost of living differences.
    Again, if it's good in this situation, why isn't it good for the whole economy?

    One problem with refusing to allow collective bargaining by teachers is that you get wild swings in the provision of educational services. Teachers have no voice in what they get paid, so the state pays less and less until finally they won't even pay for Fridays. Citizens notice and get angry. Teachers notice and stage work actions. At some point the situation gets corrected, but the correction is a huge and costly one (mostly for students, who've been getting only 80% of the education they are supposed to get.)

    You want teachers and other public employees to be paid on a basis that you would refuse to accept in other areas of the economy.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by a777pilot View Post
    Let's see if I have this correct: The public sector unions, you know those people that are paid with taxpayer's money, want a pay raise. They demand this pay raise from a mostly Republican-controlled state government. Now keep in mind that these public sector unions, and especially the teacher's unions, donate mostly, overwhelmingly, to Democrats. Then they, the teachers, are surprised that these Republicans, who they vote against, won't give them more of the people's money? I think these teachers need to do their homework.
    Who teaches those REPUBLICAN children?

    What's more important? The kids people have and claim to love or selfish greedy people being able to remain greedy and selfish, while underpaying people that are with their children for how many hours in a day and affect the future of their children's success in life?

    Perhaps some posters here could have had better teachers? At least teachers that inspired them to think, before opening their mouths.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Between the people offering the service and the people paying for it. If we can have discussions where fact checking goes on at an internet message board, something tells me it can be done in a labor negotiation.
    It could be, if there was some standard guiding those negotiations. But there aren't. It's divide-and-conquer. Every different school administrator for him- or herself, in many many cases.

    And it's standardized because ultimately the whole thing can go to an arbiter, who will examine facts and claims.
    Arbitration isn't binding on elected legislatures that ratify contracts. The existing framework for unions controlling the discourse around public sector labor hasn't led to regularity in pay.

    Sure they can...they just do it with lower quality labor. Or they simply don't provide as much of the service, which is what happened in Oklahoma.
    You asked if supply and demand have any bearing on it, and I said yes, obviously it has some bearing.

    Great. Let's set all wages and prices this way. That supply and demand thing is just too unwieldy. Smart people like you and me can figure out what's a fair price for everything and then enforce that on everyone else.
    Almost everything government procures is competitive. Permanent W2 jobs with benefits are one of the only things government subjects itself to procuring through an organization with monopoly bargaining and representation privileges.

    Again, if it's good in this situation, why isn't it good for the whole economy?
    It doesn't need to be good for the whole economy, it needs to be consistent with the way government procures anything else, including other labor/services. Its part-time labor, its management, its contracted services, none of the procurement of any of that needs to be controlled by a monopoly representative.

    One problem with refusing to allow collective bargaining by teachers is that you get wild swings in the provision of educational services. Teachers have no voice in what they get paid, so the state pays less and less until finally they won't even pay for Fridays. Citizens notice and get angry. Teachers notice and stage work actions. At some point the situation gets corrected, but the correction is a huge and costly one (mostly for students, who've been getting only 80% of the education they are supposed to get.)
    This is the status quo with unions having controlled the discourse over public sector compensation for decades. The states where they've had the most disproportionate power are the ones that have been driven to the brink. Michigan, Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut...

    You want teachers and other public employees to be paid on a basis that you would refuse to accept in other areas of the economy.
    We're talking about the public sector. How public sector compensation should be determined. I'm saying it should be by government, not by government voluntarily abdicating its own power to labor cartels. And if municipal or even state governments are pushing self-sabotaging compensation policies like trying to pay teachers minimum wage, then it should be a federal regulatory requirement to pay public workers to a certain standard, and not leave it to secret negotiations with every school administrator across the country every few years. There's nothing strangely autocratic about government setting prices for labor when government itself is one half of the transaction, and when government invariably makes law and policy about how that compensation is going to be determined in the first place.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 16th April 2018 at 09:06 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Anyone can whine about how hard their job is, as a red herring to objectively discussing what they should get paid.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Anyone can whine about how hard their job is, as a red herring to objectively discussing what they should get paid.
    I thought you were interested in facts? What you've presented here provides a good many facts, yet you prefer to ignore it. Why? Because of its source.

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