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Thread: Oklahoma's Revolution Didn't End with Teacher Strikes—It's Going Much Further

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I thought you were interested in facts? What you've presented here provides a good many facts, yet you prefer to ignore it. Why? Because of its source.
    The unknown author paste was not about facts.

    A common rebuttal from teachers when discussion start getting critical about the process by which teacher compensation is determined is “you don’t know what it’s like!!!”

    Any worker can say “woe is me.” It’s a meaningless rhetoric-based argument.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Some of us actually no how important education is. Others l like yourself do not.

    First of all, to the bold, LOL at the irony.

    Secondly, it's not difficult to adjust for differences in cost of living. You can find education funding per student by state here, and you can grab a cost of living index by state here, and in a few minutes on an Excel spreadsheet you can calculate education salaries, wages, and benefits per student by state adjusted for cost of living. Results? Alaska and Wyoming are two red outliers in that they pay a lot for education, but they're also outliers in terms of population, which affects why they spend so much per student (much smaller denominator). New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Illinois all spend some of the most per student and while they have good schools relatively speaking, they have had decades of poor fiscal management, allowed unions to basically run their governments for them, leading to massive unfunded liabilities. So they've done great by the kids in terms of education quality but they've saddled those same kids with absolutely enormous public pension debts. Sing praises of states like New Jersey, Illinois, Connecticut, for being so generous to teachers and producing great education, but for Christ sake might as well send those kids through private school and then stick them with the bill and tell them they'll have to start paying it back, plus interest, when they turn 30. Financially we're practically doing that to the public school kids in some of those states.

    On the other end of the spectrum, Hawaii, California and Oregon rank quite low after adjusting for cost of living.

    "Things that make you say hmmm..."
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 16th April 2018 at 12:36 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The unknown author paste was not about facts.

    A common rebuttal from teachers when discussion start getting critical about the process by which teacher compensation is determined is “you don’t know what it’s like!!!”

    Any worker can say “woe is me.” It’s a meaningless rhetoric-based argument.
    I think when you disrespect someone, they are likely to respond in that way. What you're talking about has nothing to do with labor negotiations but with public discussions like this one, and it's a reasonable response when the work of public school teachers is denigrated all the time.

    Few people imagine they know what it means to be an astronaut or an engineer or even a professional baseball player because they didn't spend 12 years sitting in a simulator or a drafting table or a dugout. Pretty much everyone does spend 12 years watching teachers, so they imagine they know all about it and can thus judge that work easily.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Anyone can whine about how hard their job is, as a red herring to objectively discussing what they should get paid.
    Except in Ok - literally schools are falling apart.

    CNN)As an English teacher at Heavener High School in eastern Oklahoma, Sarah Jane Scarberry said she has tried for years to replace her classroom's tattered textbooks.

    "I have requested new textbooks for a few years with no real hopes of getting any," she told CNN



    Scarberry also shared images of her classroom's broken desks and chairs, and said they weren't too bad compared to other classrooms.



    On Twitter, user jamiebh73 shared a photo of a textbook from her daughter's eighth-grade history class in Owasso. In the book, George W. Bush is still president, she said.

    https://twitter.com/jamiebh73/status...987137/photo/1

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/03/us/ok...rnd/index.html

    Not to mention teachers in OK HAVE to work 1 or 2 other jobs, just to make ends meet.

    Let's put this way - would you be ok with your kids attending school is OK?

    I know I would want much better for my kids.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think when you disrespect someone, they are likely to respond in that way. What you're talking about has nothing to do with labor negotiations but with public discussions like this one, and it's a reasonable response when the work of public school teachers is denigrated all the time.

    Few people imagine they know what it means to be an astronaut or an engineer or even a professional baseball player because they didn't spend 12 years sitting in a simulator or a drafting table or a dugout. Pretty much everyone does spend 12 years watching teachers, so they imagine they know all about it and can thus judge that work easily.
    I’m not disrespecting teachers, nor am I supporting the particular types of arguments that seem to attack teachers, what I’m criticizing is the rhetoric that repeatedly fails to adjust for cost-of-living differences, as well as in general the very disorganized and highly variable ways in which teacher compensation is decided from state to state, which has resulted in some states appearing to overpay for what they’re getting, such as in Michigan or Ohio or maybe Pennsylvania, and other places where residents appear to be under paying, such as maybe Hawaii or South Dakota for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I’m not disrespecting teachers, nor am I supporting the particular types of arguments that seem to attack teachers, what I’m criticizing is the rhetoric that repeatedly fails to adjust for cost-of-living differences, as well as in general the very disorganized and highly variable ways in which teacher compensation is decided from state to state, which has resulted in some states appearing to overpay for what they’re getting, such as in Michigan or Ohio or maybe Pennsylvania, and other places where residents appear to be under paying, such as maybe Hawaii or South Dakota for example.
    Yes, yes, yes, but you keep attacking things unrelated to that question, which suggests the issue is something else.

    What I see in the communication about classroom conditions from Oklahoma teachers address school funding GENERALLY, not specifically salaries. Workers are interested in working conditions and the ability of workers to accomplish the work assigned to them by the state, which they can't do when the agencies they work for are generally underfunded. In many cases, the problem isn't just teacher salaries. It's broken desks, malfunctioning HVAC systems, outdated textbooks falling apart, etc. Strangely, teachers are as interested in these problems as in their own salaries.

    All your assumptions are based on the idea that teachers are self-interested but that government is somehow objective and fair. That's obviously not true, for the reasons I've mentioned in other threads.

    My own union, for example, opposes tuition increases because they harm students and limit access, particularly for poorer students. We not only want to be adequately funded, we want those funds to come from taxpayers. We've seen the share of state funds to higher education seriously reduced in recent years, while funding for...say...prisons has increased in almost proportionate terms.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Yes, yes, yes, but you keep attacking things unrelated to that question, which suggests the issue is something else.

    What I see in the communication about classroom conditions from Oklahoma teachers address school funding GENERALLY, not specifically salaries. Workers are interested in working conditions and the ability of workers to accomplish the work assigned to them by the state, which they can't do when the agencies they work for are generally underfunded. In many cases, the problem isn't just teacher salaries. It's broken desks, malfunctioning HVAC systems, outdated textbooks falling apart, etc. Strangely, teachers are as interested in these problems as in their own salaries.
    I'm not sure that's necessarily generally true, that they're as interested in facilities and other operating expenses as their pay. It doesn't really appear that way to me.

    All your assumptions are based on the idea that teachers are self-interested but that government is somehow objective and fair. That's obviously not true, for the reasons I've mentioned in other threads.
    Government is not necessarily always objective and fair by everyone's opinion, but government is government. Other than voters participating in routine re-elections, there is no other thing that realistically trumps government itself with regard to the price it's willing to pay for something. Government makes the law, levies taxes, and big contracts are approved or not approved by an elected legislature and nothing can force them to approve a contract, because they're an elected legislature. Government doesn't need to be held in check in terms of objectivity and fairness by a non-government entity trying to extract more money out of government. Government procures more than half its W2 labor from people not represented by a union, as well as a great deal of contractual services from entities not represented by some union/cartel, and there is not necessarily any sense of deep pervasive systemic unfairness with regard to the prices government pays for all of that. This is all to say that only unionized government labor, the third to half of it that is union-represented, is unique in that only unions can wield these particular types of coercive and disruptive powers over state and municipal governments.

    Some states may not be "objective and fair" in that they fund education inadequately, and others may not be "objective and fair" in that government leaders have an overly close, corrupt relationship with union leaders and approve of overly generous compensation terms despite severe fiscal problems (such as those faced by states like Illinois, New Jersey, and Connecticut). South Dakota and Oklahoma and Kansas are pretty politically different from, say, Illinois or Connecticut or California or New York, so each might have its own non-objective, unfair reasons for being almost cruel to teachers and students (in the case of the former), or to taxpayers (in the case of the latter). The federal government could moderate some of that variability in politics and education funding across disparate states.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 17th April 2018 at 02:23 PM.

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