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Thread: Update: 58 dead, 2700 injured--medical emergency may be declared in Israel.

  1. #171
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I'm curious since you believe it is immoral for my country to provide Israel with military aid - do you feel the same way when we provide your country with military aid? Because that is usually the whole point of making an alliance with another country - to provide them with military aid. Especially when they are being attacked.... as Israel is.
    If the UK were treating a minority (over whom they had absolute power,) in Britain in the way that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians, and had killed over two thousand of their children in the last decade, I would consider support of that regime extremely immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I also wonder how your country Britain would react if the IRA or some other terrorist organization started attacking their country to get the kind of political results they wanted. OH wait - never mind - we already know how your country reacted.

    It's always easier to be the moral judge of another country when you're not the country being attacked. It's also always amusing to me how much a person's morals seem to change when they are the target instead of someone else.
    I am surprised that you would have the gall to mention the IRA, as they were supported financially and armed by Americans. Not the American state, but the administration of Ronald Reagan refused to do anything to stop or hinder this. No citizen of the United States is in a position to accuse any other nationality of hypocrisy. Shall we speak of American support for practically every murderous right wing dictatorship across the globe? From Soeharto, to Pinochet, to Fascists like Franco? And who supported the seating of Pol Pot's "democratic Kampuchea" regime in the United Nations? I fear you live in too heavily fenestrated an abode to chuck those rocks.
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  2. #172
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    “Benjamin Aaron Shapiro” is an Orthodox Jew (not a secret) and unabashedly pro Israel. I am not claiming that he is “objective “but his article contains some interesting information and discussion on the issue if you were at all interested in finding out more about it. If all we do is put our fingers in her ears and sing Lala Lala when someone who has a different point of view voices their opinion, what are we accomplishing?
    I take your point, if not the implicit accusation of lack of interest in fact, but surely the views of an 'unabashedly pro Israel' writer should not be accepted without question on an issue regarding Israel?

  3. #173
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    I take your point, if not the implicit accusation of lack of interest in fact, but surely the views of an 'unabashedly pro Israel' writer should not be accepted without question on an issue regarding Israel?
    No one’s views should be accepted without question.

    By the same token, to assert that Israelis’ or Jews’ views on the matter ought be disregarded or discounted seems inappropriate, wouldn’t you say?

    Do they bring their biases to the discussion? Yes. As do you. As do I. As do Palestinians.
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  4. #174
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    P.S. @Leo2 - I know you to be good-hearted and well-intentioned, so I don't believe you are coming from a bad place on this. But how is suggesting to Ian that his viewpoint oughtn't be given consideration because he is Jewish any different (or more excusable) than someone suggesting to you that your viewpoint regarding matters involving the UK oughtn't be given consideration because you're a Brit?
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  5. #175
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Exactly. Some are officially Islamic States. Some are de facto Islamic states, by virtue of being 90%+ Muslim.

    Israel is a Jewish State. It's the only one - and they're FAR more tolerant of other religions than any Islamic state.
    And America is a white Christian country.

    I mean sure some minority of people living there aren’t. But the country is officially White Christian, right?

    It doesn’t mean other people don’t have the same rights. It’s just that the country is a white Christian country.

    So white Christians can say that. Proudly. At all levels of government. They can even make a cross the national flag.
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  6. #176
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    P.S. @Leo2 - I know you to be good-hearted and well-intentioned, so I don't believe you are coming from a bad place on this. But how is suggesting to Ian that his viewpoint oughtn't be given consideration because he is Jewish any different (or more excusable) than someone suggesting to you that your viewpoint regarding matters involving the UK oughtn't be given consideration because you're a Brit?
    I thank you for those compliments, and I would understand the implicit criticism were I to have suggested Ian's viewpoint were not to be given due consideration because he is Jewish. However, I have suggested no such thing - I have based my impressions upon the repeated defence and justifications of Israeli behaviour mounted by Ian on these pages over many years. Were I to similarly defend any and every British action (irrespective of its moral content) you would be entirely justified in not accepting my views on those matters as entirely objective.

    There is no criticism, implicit or explicit, of Ian in saying this. He is an Orthodox Jew who has made his support of the Zionist State very clear - something to which he is entirely entitled. I value his views in all things, it is just that I do not see the same level of objectivity in relation to Israel. I also, given the history, entirely understand his, and any other Jewish person's, support of the Israeli State. I think you may be (perhaps understandably) misinterpreting my attitude towards Ian, and to Judaism in general. If so, it is probably my fault for not making that attitude crystal clear.
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  7. #177
    The Un-Holy One The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    No one’s views should be accepted without question.

    By the same token, to assert that Israelis’ or Jews’ views on the matter ought be disregarded or discounted seems inappropriate, wouldn’t you say?

    Do they bring their biases to the discussion? Yes. As do you. As do I. As do Palestinians.
    Do you see me blindly and stubbornly defend every screwed up thing that Putin does in here, simply because I come originally from that part of the world? Nor do I also simply nod along to everything Canada does either.

    Meanwhile, Ian and Djinn too usually speak in support of every action of Israel, no matter how wrong that action may be...

  8. #178
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    I thank you for those compliments, and I would understand the implicit criticism were I to have suggested Ian's viewpoint were not to be given due consideration because he is Jewish. However, I have suggested no such thing - I have based my impressions upon the repeated defence and justifications of Israeli behaviour mounted by Ian on these pages over many years. Were I to similarly defend any and every British action (irrespective of its moral content) you would be entirely justified in not accepting my views on those matters as entirely objective.

    There is no criticism, implicit or explicit, of Ian in saying this. He is an Orthodox Jew who has made his support of the Zionist State very clear - something to which he is entirely entitled. I value his views in all things, it is just that I do not see the same level of objectivity in relation to Israel. I also, given the history, entirely understand his, and any other Jewish person's, support of the Israeli State. I think you may be (perhaps understandably) misinterpreting my attitude towards Ian, and to Judaism in general. If so, it is probably my fault for not making that attitude crystal clear.
    Perhaps I am. But implicit in your comments is the notion that the views of one who has a stake in an issue ought be given less weight than the views of one who doesn't. No one - not any single one of us - is purely objective. We all bring our biases and preconceptions to any issue. So to be in the midst of discussing an (admittedly thorny) issue and suggest to another that YOU are being objective about it but HE is not seems condescending. Debate the other on the merits, recognize the circumstances which inform his views, but don't turn a blind eye to the circumstances which inform your own and don't imply that you're better suited to have the discussion than he.
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  9. #179
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Do you see me blindly and stubbornly defend every screwed up thing that Putin does in here, simply because I come originally from that part of the world? Nor do I also simply nod along to everything Canada does either.

    Meanwhile, Ian and Djinn too usually speak in support of every action of Israel, no matter how wrong that action may be...
    No, I don't.

    Do you believe Djinn and Ian blindly and stubbornly defend everything Israel does? Because the fallacy of that is demonstrated in this and several other threads. Neither one of them appears all that keen on the move of the embassy -- which, admittedly wasn't Israel's direct doing but certainly was something that Israel has invited.
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  10. #180
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    I dunno.

    When you say South Africa is a white Christian state, and has a right to protect itself, you get called some pretty nasty names.


    I don’t know any Jewish people in Canada who happily say “Canada is a Christian Aryan country, I just live here. And that’s totally fair.”.
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