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Thread: Update: 58 dead, 2700 injured--medical emergency may be declared in Israel.

  1. #181
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    Perhaps I am. But implicit in your comments is the notion that the views of one who has a stake in an issue ought be given less weight than the views of one who doesn't. No one - not any single one of us - is purely objective. We all bring our biases and preconceptions to any issue. So to be in the midst of discussing an (admittedly thorny) issue and suggest to another that YOU are being objective about it but HE is not seems condescending. Debate the other on the merits, recognize the circumstances which inform his views, but don't turn a blind eye to the circumstances which inform your own and don't imply that you're better suited to have the discussion than he.
    Whilst I agree with your closing advice, you appear to be intent upon making this into an adversarial contest. I would prefer otherwise, but so be it. So let's analyse the discussion a bit further.

    Implicit is a difficult concept - what may be taken as implicit by one, is not necessarily as such by another. A certain level of confirmation bias may enter into the matter, so what you claim to be implicit in my comments may not be intended as such.

    Whilst I entirely agree that we all inadvertently bring our biases and preconceptions to any issue under discussion, allow me to refute the accusation that I consider myself to be intrinsically objective about the issue of Israel and its behaviour, whilst Ian is not so capable - simply because he is Jewish. I do not believe that I am better informed to discuss Israel than is Ian, nor have I stated any such view - irrespective of what you may consider implicit. I have clearly stated that Ian's support of Israel on these pages has been unequivocal and constant, and his posts have been what have informed my impression of his allegiances. Objectivity, like implicitness, can be a matter of interpretation, and at no time have I stated my own objectivity to be, like Caesar's wife, beyond question.

    I respect your rising to Ian's defence in a situation where you see him as being attacked, but I fear you have misinterpreted the situation - I don't know that I can explain it any further.
    Thanks from Wonderer, The Man and labrea

  2. #182
    Flibbertigibbet Wonderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    Whilst I agree with your closing advice, you appear to be intent upon making this into an adversarial contest. I would prefer otherwise, but so be it. So let's analyse the discussion a bit further.

    Implicit is a difficult concept - what may be taken as implicit by one, is not necessarily as such by another. A certain level of confirmation bias may enter into the matter, so what you claim to be implicit in my comments may not be intended as such.

    Whilst I entirely agree that we all inadvertently bring our biases and preconceptions to any issue under discussion, allow me to refute the accusation that I consider myself to be intrinsically objective about the issue of Israel and its behaviour, whilst Ian is not so capable - simply because he is Jewish. I do not believe that I am better informed to discuss Israel than is Ian, nor have I stated any such view - irrespective of what you may consider implicit. I have clearly stated that Ian's support of Israel on these pages has been unequivocal and constant, and his posts have been what have informed my impression of his allegiances. Objectivity, like implicitness, can be a matter of interpretation, and at no time have I stated my own objectivity to be, like Caesar's wife, beyond question.

    I respect your rising to Ian's defence in a situation where you see him as being attacked, but I fear you have misinterpreted the situation - I don't know that I can explain it any further.
    Well, I appreciate you trying. As I read your comments, it appeared you were expressing concern that you couldn’t have a meaningful or productive conversation with him about the topic due to his lack of objectivity.

    And no, I don’t aspire to being adversarial to you. I know you’re a love.
    Thanks from Leo2

  3. #183
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    I'm sorry my friend - you are one of the people I most admire on this board, but your pro-Israeli inclinations (seemingly, and perhaps understandably, common to many Jewish members of this board,) make it difficult to discuss these matters objectively.
    Anti-Israel inclinations are no less subjective an opinionated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    The picture does serve to indicate the IDF's attitude to Palestinian children.
    Hardly. It is not relevant to the article, and its validity is hardly verified therein.
    Thanks from Dr.Knuckles and Wonderer

  4. #184
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    I can only speak for myself, but perhaps some of my frustration is based on the fact that - in most places where there are massacres and decades of tit for tat atrocities and so on, the people involved are oppressed and miserable and diseased and hopeless. They have no understanding of the outside world. It would take a century to develop them to a modern state.

    All of this would end, all of it. It would all be over in a heartbeat if the educated,worldly, free citizens of Isreal would just vote for it. There’s no shortage of political factions in Isreal that want peace and will honestly work towards it. But every home Bibi bulldozes seems to get him more votes.

    For all of Trumps rhetoric on Mexico and border security - all the “murderers and rapists” talk. I’ve never once heard him suggest shooting people who get close to it.
    Last edited by Dr.Knuckles; 16th May 2018 at 08:27 PM.

  5. #185
    DEEP STATE CEO Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but perhaps some of my frustration is based on the fact that - in most places where there are massacres and decades of tit for tat atrocities and so on, the people involved are oppressed and miserable and diseased and hopeless. They have no understanding of the outside world. It would take a century to develop them to a modern state.

    All of this would end, all of it. It would all be over in a heartbeat if the educated,worldly, free citizens of Isreal would just vote for it. There’s no shortage of political factions in Isreal that want peace and will honestly work towards it. But every home Bibi bulldozes seems to get him more votes.
    The nation could do with another 'Rabin' at the helm.

  6. #186
    Spock of Vulcan Ian Jeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Knuckles View Post
    It would take a century to develop them to a modern state.
    It would take considerably less than that if they would spend their aid building the country instead of attempting to destroy another country.
    Thanks from Wonderer

  7. #187
    Veteran Member Dr.Knuckles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    It would take considerably less than that if they would spend their aid building the country instead of attempting to destroy another country.
    Build what? The prison? With what? Rubble?

    It’s been five generations born in the same prison. Where would they magically acquire the means to build a modern society?


    Apartheid is wrong. It’s wrong. It’s wrong in America. It’s wrong in South Africa. It’s wrong in China. It’s wrong on Mars. It’s just straight up wrong.

  8. #188
    Veteran Member carpe diem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpicturetaker12 View Post
    You mean like those radical fucknuts terrorists who threw TEA overboard in Boston because of oppressive taxation?
    Every time I think I've read the most outrageous comparison...somehow in short order another liberal states something even more bizarro.

  9. #189
    DEEP STATE CEO Blues63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpe diem View Post
    Every time I think I've read the most outrageous comparison...somehow in short order another liberal states something even more bizarro.
    This may be a little complex, but it is reference to the saying 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'.

  10. #190
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Anti-Israel inclinations are no less subjective an opinionated.
    I agree, but I have not seen many of those on these pages, whereas the unconditional support of Israel has been somewhat more forthcoming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Jeffrey View Post
    Hardly. It is not relevant to the article, and its validity is hardly verified therein.
    That remains a matter of opinion.

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