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Thread: Sacha Baron Cohen stolen valor.

  1. #151
    Senior Member Sparta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    Yes, in the exact same way that when an actor plays a military character in a movie, he's doing it for money. But the point is the actor isn't trying to make people think he's in the military, but rather that his character is. He's not trying to get unearned credit for that experience for himself, and neither was Cohen.
    The credit he got was the audience which allowed him to profit from the prank. Palin would not have sat with Cohen, which is the reason he had to pretend to be more than he is.

    I know, it's like a rubik's cube for your mind, right?
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  2. #152
    Senior Member Sparta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    I'm still not totally sure what happened between Sacha Baron Cohen and Sarah Palin, but I consider impersonating a disabled serviceman of any nationality to be somewhat tasteless. Baron Cohen is a clever comedian, and his previous characters have been mildly amusing, if a bit OTT. I like my humour to be a touch more subtle than that - biting but thought provoking - a bit like the classic 'Yes Minister' series.

    As the scion of a very old military family, and someone who lost his father to conflict; I'm a bit uncomfortable with too much sending up of the military. However, I regard the common US attitude to their military as bordering upon Fascist. I have two uncles currently serving in the Royal Navy and the RAF respectively, and they are gob-smacked at the concept of holidays and parades celebrating the currently serving military. They are further amazed at the stories of people applauding perfect strangers in uniform, and buying them drinks. Like the individuals concerned could be cooks or clerks who have never set foot on foreign soil - they regard the phenomenon as socially unhealthy. It smacks of Fascist Germany in the 1930s.

    This implies no disrespect for those who have served their country bravely and well, and particularly for those who have paid the ultimate price in so doing - but concepts such as 'stolen valour' and honouring anyone in uniform, is cheapening that sacrifice. My dad was awarded the MC and the DSO, and these are things I cherish in his memory, but he would have laughed at the idea of a perfect stranger applauding him merely because he was in uniform.
    Most service members would probably agree with everything you said, However there are tangible benefits in this society afforded to those who have sacrificed their freedom in order to serve. To capitalize from another person's service is of low character and deserves to be outed.
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  3. #153
    Senior Member Sparta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    You can't steal valor playing a heavily disguised comedy character under a false name.

    The reason people steal valor is to aggrandize themselves, so they are falsely recognized in their own identity for a sacrifice they themselves didn't make.

    Cohen used a character not to deceive the general public for his own benefit, but to fool specific individuals into talking to him, with no one knowing who he actually is.

    That's not stealing valor any more than an actor, who didn't serve, putting on a uniform while playing someone who did serve.

    Right-wing tools recognize he was probably quite effective at this, so better throw whatever unfounded accusations we can against him.
    Pretending to be a disabled veteran in order to gain access to someone who otherwise wouldn't have offered an audience.

    Say it slowly.

    To gain a privilege he did not earn, he impersonated someone who had.

    Simple stuff
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  4. #154
    Senior Member Sparta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    There's no such thing as a safe job, military or otherwise. You can die a violent death as a taxi driver, convenience store clerk, social worker, community activist, and so on. But at least in recent times, combat deaths have been extremely rare in the US.

    Since 2000, we've averaged about 390 KIAs per year (mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan when those combat operations were hot). That sounds like a lot, but think of it relative to the huge size of our military. We've averaged about 1.4 million active duty military personnel per year, so that's about 27 KIAs per 100,000 active duty personnel per year. To put that in context, you'd be running more than twice as big a risk by moving to Baltimore (murder rate 56/100k), as you would serving actively in the US armed forces (KIA rate of 27 per 100k). Other cities where a random resident is more likely to be murdered than a random active duty military person is likely to be killed in action include St. Louis, Detroit, New Orleans, and Newark. The risk of serving in the military appears to be roughly on par with the risk of living in Milwaukee.

    And remember, that calculation limits the view to the last several years, when the military has been fairly active and murder rates have been fairly low. If you were to extend the calculation back to the 1990s, 1980s, and late 1970s, when KIAs were even rarer, and murder rates much higher, the comparison would be even more eye-opening. The military just hasn't tended to be a very risky profession since the end of the Vietnam War. Loggers and fishermen face vastly greater dangers -- suffering fatal on-the-job injuries at rates of 135.9 and 86/100k, respectively. Soldiers are at about the same level as garbage men (34.1 fatal injuries per 100,000 per year). Perhaps we should remember to thank our local sanitation worker for her service.
    Dishonest AF.

    People who volunteer to surrender their rights to service do so with all of modern history in mind, not your cherry picking statistical bullshit.

    You want something approaching reality you need to include what is understood to be industrial warfare, which coincides with the advent of the machine gun. That's WW1 to present.

    You could have used statics from January 1994-august 1998 to "prove" that soldiering was safer than taking a sleep test.

    The low # of casualties at present speak to the training they receive, the professionalism they exhibit and the nature of the conflict they're currently engaged in, not the nature of the job.

    Btw, you're not the 1st person to use this exact argument on ph, get an original act.

  5. #155
    Veteran Member Dangermouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparta View Post
    Pretending to be a disabled veteran in order to gain access to someone who otherwise wouldn't have offered an audience.

    Say it slowly.

    To gain a privilege he did not earn, he impersonated someone who had.

    Simple stuff
    The privilege being exposing a hypocrite to well deserved exposure. Roy Moore was another target for bubble-bursting. And Joe Walsh, I believe.
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  6. #156
    Veteran Member Chief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macduff View Post
    That was for his own benefit. He got a show out of it. Which presumably he was paid for.
    In which his "stolen valor" is immediately exposed. It's not really the same as someone trying to advance himself by false pretenses. He made money because he punked someone as opposed to because he was a disabled veteran.

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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief View Post
    In which his "stolen valor" is immediately exposed. It's not really the same as someone trying to advance himself by false pretenses. He made money because he punked someone as opposed to because he was a disabled veteran.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    Um, he made money posing as a disabled vet. The fact he punked someone in the process is not an excuse.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo2 View Post
    Thank you for your explanation of the phenomenon, but I would like to know what was troubling about my post. It was not intended to be disrespectful of the military (I explained my own rather personal attitude to the military) but rather to question this apparently neo-Fascist lionisation of the military (something we are warned against in the screed on show at the New York Holocaust Museum).

    Without minimising their sacrifice, the members of a voluntary military (as are both yours and ours,) have chosen this as a profession, and are no more worthy of thanks than the postman, or your family doctor. The Fascist element enters when the government plays a part in that lionisation, which works as a form of indoctrination - so we end up with military parades and oversize flags everywhere - it simply isn't sociologically healthy.

    But lol, having said all that - we each pays our money and we each makes our choice. This applies to society as much as to the individual, and who am I to tell you how to run your society?
    I guess because a postal worker doesn't go to work with a dog tag in his shoe so he can be identified if his head is blown off.

    Also when we volunteer, we cannot unvolunteer for the duration of our contract.

    We also deploy away from home, resulting in hardships not typically dealt with in other careers.

    Stuff like that.

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  9. #159
    Veteran Member Chief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball View Post
    Um, he made money posing as a disabled vet. The fact he punked someone in the process is not an excuse.
    That's like saying a delivery man made money because he drove a car. He didn't. He made money because he delivered something. That he drove a car is irrelevant to the completion of his task.

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  10. #160
    Vexatious Correspondent Leo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparta View Post
    Most service members would probably agree with everything you said, However there are tangible benefits in this society afforded to those who have sacrificed their freedom in order to serve. To capitalize from another person's service is of low character and deserves to be outed.
    I agree - I consider it a prank in very questionable taste, and my opinion of Baron Cohen has suffered considerably.

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