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Thread: Why Republicans want to kill Obamacare in its Infancy!

  1. #111
    Veteran Member Pragmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtm1963 View Post
    i don't think so devil. do you have anything to offer?

    the first is absolutely correct. the second is true to the extent that the CBO first scored the cost at a little less then a billion dollars for the first 10 years but that included 4 years before it is fully implemented. once fully implemented the cost go to 1.7 billion for the first 10 years. so yes the cost seem to be an unknown. so given that the second, how can anyone say healthcare costs are going to come down.

    so explain why it's BS?
    Actually, in 1993 when then-President Clinton was attempting to reform healthcare, Republicans who opposed Clinton's idea of an employer mandate, supported the idea of an individual mandate. An individual mandate, the Republicans argued, would be a "free-market solution" to reform healthcare, part of a "social contract" that would help people take responsibility for themselves and avoid the immorality of freeloading off the government. Clinton's plan, on the other hand, was seen as a "true government take-over" of healthcare, the worst form of the dreaded "socialized medicine."
    RomneyCare - The Truth about Massachusetts Health Care | Mitt Romney Central
    And maybe not you but all the conservative assholes on this site would have been screaming for an individual mandate back in the 90's, they are just too fucking stupid to be able to think for themselves now they just follow what they are told.

    As far as cost...

    The overall costs of the program to the state have not exceeded expectations. At the time of passage, Romney predicted that the new law would add just 1 to 1.5% to the state budget. Last year the additional cost to the state was only 1.2% - precisely where Romney predicted it would be even though the costs to the state would be much lower if the Massachusetts legislature and Governor Patrick (Romney's successor) hadn't added significant costs to the healthcare law.
    It can't possibly be nearly as expensive as what America pays now for healthcare (or what they will pay a few yrs down the road)..

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatist View Post
    And maybe not you but all the conservative assholes on this site would have been screaming for an individual mandate back in the 90's,
    Strawman much, when you have absolutely NOTHING?

    Conservatives DO NOT support government mandates, commands, orders, and dictates. Ergo, you don't have any argument with conservatives, but RINOs, who are, of course, your kind of people.

    It can't possibly be nearly as expensive as what America pays now for healthcare (or what they will pay a few yrs down the road)..
    Don't be silly. The conservatives know that the Sixteenth Amendment was sold as applying solely to the "rich", but before Woody The Worst Wilson left office, just about EVERYONE was paying money to the IRS.

    We all know that socialist insecurity was sold as a ponzi scheme in which only very few people would live to collect....Socialist Insecurity is leading the charge in racking up 120,000 billion dollars in unfunded debt for the nation's children.

    Medicare was sold on the promise that it wouldn't cost more than 10 billion dollars...that was what, 900 billion dollars ago? Medicare is the car just behind the Socialist Insecurity engine driving the 120,000 billion dollar unfunded debt train, dude.

    And you want to insult us by pretending we're stupid enough to believe your lies about how MessiahCare is going REDUCE medical costs? On what fucking planet has a massive government takeover of an entire industry ever saved money or benefitted the citizens? Wherever it was, it's never happened on earth.

    If MessiahCare was sold on the promise that it will cost a 1000 billion dollars....it'll cost 10,000 billion dollars, easily.

    You have to quit supporting charlatans who hope themseles into elected office on the face of your gullibility and start trying to figure out how they're going to hold you up. If you need a cheap lesson, hang a $100 bill out of your pocket and stroll through Central Park after dark, okay?
    Last edited by Mayor Snorkum; 15th July 2012 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtm1963 View Post
    Why Republicans want to kill Obamacare in its Infancy!


    because of the mandate, the uncertainty of the cost and there's nothing that gives any indication it will hold down healthcare costs.
    You do know that mandate is directed at those that use the healthcare system but don't pay for it, right? Both Romney and Gingrich support the mandate.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    That's what it's all about for you, isn't it?

    "People are dying".

    Hey Mertex, here's a newsflash: people die. 100% of the people born, die. It happens 100% of the time. No exceptions.
    So, your opinion is let them die? That sounds right, isn't that what they shouted at Ron Paul at one of the Primaries? Isn't that the mentality of many Republican/conservatives?

    You can't legislate it away, and you can't insure against it.
    What? People who have access to healthcare have a better chance of surviving longer than people who don't. You certainly can improve the chances of living longer.

    If you don't die today, you'll die tomorrow. If you don't die from illness, you'll die from old age. You ever seen an old cat tryin' to walk around?
    You're joking, right? Either you are, are you have a jaded view of life. Sad.

    You're going after the impossible dream, Mertex. It doesn't work, it won't happen. You can't stop people from dying. And specifically, you can not stop the pain associated with dying. Medicine hasn't figured out a way to do that yet, and my guess is it won't ever. Death is associated with pain, pretty much 100% of the time unless you get very very lucky and either get blindsided or die in bed (without or without your loved ones surrounding you). Most of us, it turns out, die on our feet. And we get a few minutes to contemplate our lives and feel a little pain before we go.
    I don't agree with you. Medicine keeps many people from dying. And, not everyone experiences pain at death.

    That is biology, Mertex. Death is a certainty. Painful death is an "almost" certainty. Insurance doesn't help in that area.
    Of course death is a certainty, but people don't have to die when they are "children" because some uptight, tightwad Republican thinks it is going to cost him a few pennies more in his taxes, but that same Republican doesn't blink about spending trillions on attacking countries that we have no business messing with. Having the right healthcare provider can make all the difference between a worry free life and a life of anxiety and grief.
    Why The Right Healthcare Provider Can Make All Of The Difference | Health Insurance Quotes - HealthInsuranceQuotes.com

    Sorry, but you don't get to do that. Liberals are well known for foisting their socialist bullshit on an undesiring population. You clowns are never willing to play by the rules, you gotta shove your idiotic social programs down everyone's throat.
    I'd rather be part of a party that shoves something that will help other Americans to survive, than be a member of a party that shoves useless wars and the restructuring of a country's government, especially if it is a country full of people that Republicans/conservatives don't even like (Muslims). So, when you start shoveling shit about how we never play by the rules, look at your own party, they have voted to repeal Obamacare 33 times. They know it isn't going to go anywhere, yet they waste our money doing worthless shit like this. Now that's a party to root for.
    Let me tell you something, Mertex. I have cancer right now. I'm looking at about 3 months to live, unless my medical Hail Mary happens to generate some results.
    I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you receive the best treatment available and my prayer for you would be that you become a cancer survivor. I've had 2 friends die with cancer, it is a terrible thing. I also have several friends that are cancer survivors, and they would never have been able to afford the cost of the treatments on their own. They are fortunate to have had health insurance.

    When I started into this thing, I had the best insurance money (and employers) could buy. 100% of everything was covered, except what they call "experimental treatments", which I require. So they offered me a choice: take the standard treatment and we'll pay for it, or take the experimental treatment and you can pay for it yourself. So I told 'em to go fuck off. And now I'm taking my chances. You know why? Because the "standard treatment" kills people. They end up worse off than they were when they started. Did you happen to see any pictures of Patrick Swayze about a month before he went? That's what the "standard treatment" does. It doesn't cure you, it kills you. More painfully than if you did nothing. I am here right now doing work so I can pay for my medical bills which end up being approximately 10% of the total cost "because I'm a guinea pig" - I'm volunteering my body for a medical experiment, that's the reality here. Do I want insurance? No! Am I going to pay for insurance? No! Not ever. Law or no fucking law, I am not paying those rotten bastards to kill me. Okay? You can take your amazingly socially progressive socialized medicine and stick it in your ear. Are you hearing me loud and clear on this?
    I'm truly sorry for your situation and I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, however, not everyone has been in your situation, nor do they have the same results you've had. I've had health insurance all my life, and I am thankful that they have covered the expenses when I've been sick that I wouldn't have been able to afford without going completely broke.

    So, even though I am sorry for your situation, I still do not agree with you. Many children are going without proper healthcare because what we had before was unaffordable to many. I am blessed that I can afford to pay for mine, but I'm not one that just thinks of myself, I believe everyone deserves a chance at a healthy life and if it costs me financially, I'm glad to do it. The government uses my money for whatever shit they want, most for things that I don't agree with, but hey, it's not all about me.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Because MessiahCare is unconstitutional.

    Because MessiahCare kills freedom.

    Because MessiahCare kills patients.

    Because MessiahCare is immoral.

    Because MessiahCare is nothing but fascism.

    Because MessiahCare is going to bankrupt the country.

    Because MessiahCare is won't work.
    Republican/conservative rhetoric, parroted by Faux News and Limbots.

    No, they won't have to do that. The dead bodies will speak for themselves, as well as the huge taxes and failed economy.
    We don't have a failed economy thanks to Obama. Bush gave us a failed economy, but you're going to vote for another Republican clone that will uphold the same policies that brought the country down. Brilliant.

    Just in case you missed the memo, FDR's Ponzi scheme, Socialist Security, and LBJ's scam, the Greedy Society, are leading to over 120,000 billion dollars in unfunded obligations. MessiahCare is going to add another 100,000 billion on top of that....and the entire world does not have that much money.
    Oh, but we have enough money to attack Iraq and Afghanistan, and maybe Romney would opt to attack Spain and Mexico, since Republicans have such a dislike for Hispanics, and then we can waste another trillion or more to rebuild them.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Then again, of course, the bill was passed against the expressed will of the people. There's that you people have to ignore.

    There's the fact that MORE people are going to be dying as MessiahCare destroys the nation's healthcare industry, not to mention the fact that fewer people are going to put in the incredible effort to become doctors if all they're going to do is become slugs in the national bureaucracy.

    Want to see a monster? Wait until MessiahCare takes effect.
    Pure unadulterated Republican/conservative bullshit unworthy of any sensible response. More "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" from the party of fear.


  7. #117
    Join, or Die nonsqtr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mertex View Post
    So, your opinion is let them die? That sounds right, isn't that what they shouted at Ron Paul at one of the Primaries? Isn't that the mentality of many Republican/conservatives?
    The point is, you can't do anything about it. They're going to die anyway. The only thing you (or medicine) can do, is prolong their lives maybe, and maybe help kill a little of the pain. That is reality. We don't "let" people die, we're not God, we don't get to pick and choose the time and place of peoples' death.

    Look, why don't we start talking about this reasonably? My main complaint with the whole ObamaCare thing is no one was being reasonable about it. One minute they're talking big whoopdee-doo single-payer, and the next minute they're talking mandatory insurance, and I mean, I'm trying to follow this thing scratching my head goin' "hey wait a minute, how did we just get from point A to point B, like, overnight?"

    Gnome sain'? And then we had the whole thing with the length of the bill and the fact that no one read it, and then we have all kindsa crap where they tie into peoples' personal bank accounts, and then we have the part where HIPAA is tossed out the window and suddenly they're gonna share your medical records with everyone.... I mean, that whole entire bill is a big huge scam from top to bottom. It's one of the worst things to come out of Weaselton in my living memory, bar none.

    So, let's talk reasonably, starting with the very basics. Like, for instance, you speak (below) of poor children and such. I absolutely agree, we do not want poor children dying from infections they could easily prevent with a 3.49 tube of Neosporin or a 50-cent bottle of rubbing alcohol. In this country, at this time, we collectively should be able to provide this level of basic healthcare, to everyone, regardless of financial condition. But now, what are we talking about? We're not talking about trillions and trillions of dollars to do something like this, correct? We could give bottles of rubbing alcohol and tubes of neosporin away for free to every single person in the United States and it would cost less than a billion dollars. (Just for comparison, that is the same amount of money we are currently bleeding every day because of this bad economy - so in other words, this kind of thing should be "easily do-able", right? if they can piss away a billion dollars a day on the banks, they can certainly afford ONE DAY of that to take care of the kids, and maybe some of the elderly are in the same position, y'know....)

    What? People who have access to healthcare have a better chance of surviving longer than people who don't. You certainly can improve the chances of living longer.
    Agreed. The quality of life also matters. I would rather live a shorter higher quality life, than say, ending up a vegetable in a nursing home. But, let's continue with the idea of "taking care of basic needs". Now, this concept is not equivalent to everyone having insurance. Not at all. We're talking diametrically opposite poles of philosophy. Everyone "needs" something at some point (medically speaking). Some people need more than others, and more frequently. Diabetics need insulin. Plenty of people need stuff to survive, like maybe coumadin or warfarin or statins or whatever it may be. Now, I would identify this group we're talking about now, as a different group of people, from the situation we were just discussing of the poor kid or elderly person with an acute infection. This group of people, represents "chronic care", and therefore, the cost associated with this group is much higher.

    Now, let's take diabetics as an example. Depending on the type and nature of the illness, our government will buy you insulin and needles and whatever else you need to survive. Survive being the key word here. But our government also does other stuff. If you're getting SSDI our government will buy you a wheelchair, if you're so bad your legs are messed up and you're having difficulty walking. Not only a wheelchair - a motorized scooter too. Cost about four thousand bucks. Kinda like a car or motorcycle or something, a few thousand bucks. So this group here, just as a representative example we could do some quickie math, there about 25 million diabetics in the US and if we buy each of 'em a motorized scooter that costs us 100 billion dollars. That is a lot of money. So like, I suggest, we could maybe buy 'em the insulin and needles on the public dime, but not the wheelchairs and motor scooters. Diabetics can still work, so I'm suggesting they oughta work for some of their medical expenses, just like everyone else. You, me, we all work for our insurance. Every single one of us who has it, works for it. That's the way it is now.

    You're joking, right? Either you are, are you have a jaded view of life. Sad.
    No, I have a realistic view of life. Staring one's own mortality in the face has a way of making things real simple. Decisions become easier, life becomes less complex. Everyone dies, Mertex. It's a fact of life.

    I don't agree with you. Medicine keeps many people from dying. And, not everyone experiences pain at death.
    Ah, the holy grail, right? Never to die, and never to experience pain. Well, science (medicine) isn't there yet. In other words, you're trying to make me pay for something that doesn't exist. I'll pay for the kid who needs the rubbing alcohol, but I don't think I want to pay for peoples' motor scooters. So now, look - why is it, that this ObamaCare thing has to be an "all or nothing" thing? What about, paying for the insulin but not the wheelchairs? Isn't that possible? I mean, we're going from 0 to 60 all at once here, we're going from "no coverage" to "comprehensive coverage" instantaneously. How about we visit a few of the points in between, like maybe "a little" coverage for the kids and the elderly with acute care issues, for starters?

    It seems to me, that an incremental approach would be much more reasonable than biting off the whole enchilada all at once. Only, our politicians don't seem to think so, you never even hear them discussing that possibility. Why is that? I have a glimmer - it's because they're listening to special interest groups who keep pushing so much noise and volume that they never even get to ask the question.

    Of course death is a certainty, but people don't have to die when they are "children" because some uptight, tightwad Republican thinks it is going to cost him a few pennies more in his taxes, but that same Republican doesn't blink about spending trillions on attacking countries that we have no business messing with. Having the right healthcare provider can make all the difference between a worry free life and a life of anxiety and grief.
    Why The Right Healthcare Provider Can Make All Of The Difference | Health Insurance Quotes - HealthInsuranceQuotes.com
    Yes. That's why I quit the Republican party. I very much detest those clowns at the moment. However I'm not a Democrat either, I'm not much enamored of the whole "collective" thing. I just want to be left alone as much as possible, and I'll do my part when called upon, but if you're asking for something unreasonable I'll let you know about it. And then I may or may not help, depending on how unreasonable I think it is. I think it is reasonable, for example, that every child in America should be able to see a doctor once a year for free, and get free shots. That should be do-able, that would be a very small burden on the taxpayers. But now, if we're talking about paying for the very expensive chronic care treatment of all the leukemia, lymphoma, and myeloma patients, I'm afraid my answer to that is going to be the very same thing that my insurance company told me when I asked them to pay for my experimental cancer treatments: we can not afford it. It breaks my heart that these kids have to die at such a young age, and society will lose the benefit of whatever they may have had to offer. But look, I am not God, I am not capable of controlling all things, and at some point we as a society must realize that there are limits to our capabilities. Failure to do this, will destroy our society. I'm pretty sure it's doing so even as we speak.

    I'd rather be part of a party that shoves something that will help other Americans to survive, than be a member of a party that shoves useless wars and the restructuring of a country's government, especially if it is a country full of people that Republicans/conservatives don't even like (Muslims). So, when you start shoveling shit about how we never play by the rules, look at your own party, they have voted to repeal Obamacare 33 times. They know it isn't going to go anywhere, yet they waste our money doing worthless shit like this. Now that's a party to root for.
    Yes. I don't like wars. But that's not the issue. I mean, look, this is why I don't vote for the Democrats, even though I'm mad as hell at the Republicans. It's because, there are things "attached" to the Democrats. Like this insane "let's give everyone blanket coverage for free" stuff. In my view, that is completely insane, I think the politicians are selling you guys (Democrats) a pile of snake oil and the reality with ObamaCare is that our system will get very confused for a few years and after that it'll end up much worse than it is today. The reason I told you about my personal situation is that I wanted you to know how "I" am handling it - without insurance. We do what we have to, correct? So, in my case, I "had to" volunteer myself for a medical experiment. That was and is, in fact, my best choice. And, I'm having to work, which I'm doing, to pay for my share of the treatments. "Someone else" is paying for the rest - so in other words, I was able to negotiate my way into a treatment situation with no resources, which is possible in today's system, and will not be possible after ObamaCare kicks in. Because you see, if I actually had to pay for insurance and the treatments themselves, I couldn't do it. If I had to pay for medical insurance right now, I would not be able to afford the life saving treatments that have been keeping me alive and that may cure me entirely if things go well.

    So, even though I am sorry for your situation, I still do not agree with you. Many children are going without proper healthcare because what we had before was unaffordable to many. I am blessed that I can afford to pay for mine, but I'm not one that just thinks of myself, I believe everyone deserves a chance at a healthy life and if it costs me financially, I'm glad to do it. The government uses my money for whatever shit they want, most for things that I don't agree with, but hey, it's not all about me.
    Agreed. It's not about me either. For us it's mostly about the kids, and unfortunately we're not super-rich so we end up having to think about our own kids before we start thinking about other peoples' kids. The bolded part there, that's a problem. That's a very serious problem. It's not supposed to do that. The People are supposed to have control over what our government spends money on. And you're right, that's certainly not the case. But Article I Section 8 is still there in our Constitution, in case anyone cares about that worthless piece of paper anymore.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Because MessiahCare is unconstitutional.

    Because MessiahCare kills freedom.

    Because MessiahCare kills patients.

    Because MessiahCare is immoral.

    Because MessiahCare is nothing but fascism.

    Because MessiahCare is going to bankrupt the country.

    Because MessiahCare is won't work.



    No, they won't have to do that. The dead bodies will speak for themselves, as well as the huge taxes and failed economy.

    Just in case you missed the memo, FDR's Ponzi scheme, Socialist Security, and LBJ's scam, the Greedy Society, are leading to over 120,000 billion dollars in unfunded obligations. MessiahCare is going to add another 100,000 billion on top of that....and the entire world does not have that much money.
    What's MessiahCare? and does it wear magic underwear?

    Oh yeah... i have to laugh at the "unfunded obligations" canard. Some conservatives just don't shut up after they've had their asses handed to them. Oh well. I'll defend one's right to speak like a dumb conservative, but i reserve the righ to laugh at their lunacy.

  9. #119
    Trumpaloompa Tormenter Cicero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    We're not talking about unpaid coverage. We're talking about people who don't have insurance.
    Are you taking "spinning" lessons from "ethical knot man?"
    By definition, if you are providing medical coverage to people without insurance, who can not pay, then that is unpaid coverage.
    Next.

  10. #120
    Join, or Die nonsqtr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
    Are you taking "spinning" lessons from "ethical knot man?"
    By definition, if you are providing medical coverage to people without insurance, who can not pay, then that is unpaid coverage.
    Next.
    If you're providing, it's paid.

    Next?

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