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Thread: Why Republicans want to kill Obamacare in its Infancy!

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparsely View Post
    I heard this guy on NPR yesterday making what I thought was a deplorable set of statements.
    The topic was the healthcare bill and historical opposition to similar large government programs.
    They mentioned Social Security, and this guy basically says (I'll have to paraphrase from memory here) "oh ya, there was a lot of fierce opposition to it but when more people started receiving benefits from it, they liked it more. Then their children were born into it so they just kind of accept it as "normal" and the opposition fades".
    Really?
    That's so disgusting that one would suggest that the government should just ram a program down the people's throats that 50% of them don't want, they'll quit bitching so much when we buy them off, and the kids will fight for it because something is being "taken away" from them. The initial payout seems nice. Like with Social Security it was nice for a couple of generations. It's not going to be for mine and those earlier. As it should be.

    Anyway, @Mertex sorry I went off on a tangent a bit, but that pissed me off when I heard it and I hadn't had a chance to bitch about it yet
    The problem with people that don't like Social Security is the fact that they may be very responsible people that plan ahead and cross all the t's and dot all the i's. But, unfortunately, we have a lot of people that live from day to day. If they weren't forced to put some money aside from their earnings to be used when they are old and no longer able to work, the majority of people, as dumb as it may sound, won't do it. And then, those of us that are responsible, that cross all our t's and dot all our i's, and put some money away systematically for the future, or invest in an IRA, or if we are fortunate have enough money not to have to worry about it, will have to worry about them when they are old, and they no longer can work, can't pay their rent/mortgage, don't have any money to buy food. So, I would rather that workers be required to put their own money aside for this time in the future, than have to worry about them when they get old and have to pay out of my pocket to sustain them.
    My children would then have to take care of old people in this situation at some time in their life, and my grandchildren would also have another set of old people with no money to take care of.

    I know it sounds grand to be able to plan for your own retirement and not have the government tell you to do it, but that only works when everyone is able to do the same. Perhaps Republicans are not concerned about others, why they don't even put that in their calculations when they are thinking of doing away with SS.

    And, privatization is not a secure option. If people on retirement during the Bush meltdown had put their retirement into a private company, chances are they would have lost it all and we would have a lot more people on food stamps and welfare. And we know what happens when private companies get greedy and end up bankrupt - the people that trusted them are the ones that end up losing.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    Math is our friend. As I said, unless some dopes go and pull the plug on SS, it will be around until inifinite, or the Great Cthulu comes and eats up our great-great-great-great grandchildren.

    It's all gristle.

    Social Security was enacted by the Representatives that were elected and voted on, knowing they'd keep or lose their jobs if they pissed off their constituents. That's what the founders of this nation thought was wise.
    That fails to address my primary contention with the assertion that forcefully instituting an intrusive (and largely unwelcome) Federal program on the people of the country is somehow justified by the fact that "they'll get used to it", more or less.
    I find that deplorable.
    Last edited by sparsely; 13th July 2012 at 04:14 PM. Reason: clarity

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mertex View Post
    The problem with people that don't like Social Security is the fact that they may be very responsible people that plan ahead and cross all the t's and dot all the i's. But, unfortunately, we have a lot of people that live from day to day. If they weren't forced to put some money aside from their earnings to be used when they are old and no longer able to work, the majority of people, as dumb as it may sound, won't do it. And then, those of us that are responsible, that cross all our t's and dot all our i's, and put some money away systematically for the future, or invest in an IRA, or if we are fortunate have enough money not to have to worry about it, will have to worry about them when they are old, and they no longer can work, can't pay their rent/mortgage, don't have any money to buy food. So, I would rather that workers be required to put their own money aside for this time in the future, than have to worry about them when they get old and have to pay out of my pocket to sustain them.
    My children would then have to take care of old people in this situation at some time in their life, and my grandchildren would also have another set of old people with no money to take care of.

    I know it sounds grand to be able to plan for your own retirement and not have the government tell you to do it, but that only works when everyone is able to do the same. Perhaps Republicans are not concerned about others, why they don't even put that in their calculations when they are thinking of doing away with SS.

    And, privatization is not a secure option. If people on retirement during the Bush meltdown had put their retirement into a private company, chances are they would have lost it all and we would have a lot more people on food stamps and welfare. And we know what happens when private companies get greedy and end up bankrupt - the people that trusted them are the ones that end up losing.
    That's the thing...When you talk about Social Security and its origins, we have to talk about he notion of "retirement".
    When did that silly notion first bubble-up?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparsely View Post
    That's the thing...When you talk about Social Security and its origins, we have to talk about he notion of "retirement".
    When did that silly notion first bubble-up?

    Wiki:
    A limited form of the Social Security program began, during President Franklin D. Roosevelt's first term, as a measure to implement "social insurance" during the Great Depression of the 1930s, when poverty rates among senior citizens exceeded 50 percent.[8] The Act was an attempt to limit what were seen as dangers in the modern American life, including old age, poverty, unemployment, and the burdens of widows and fatherless children.
    Opponents also decried the proposal as socialism. In a Senate Finance Committee hearing, one Senator asked Secretary of LaborFrances Perkins, "Isn't this socialism?" She said that it was not, but he continued, "Isn't this a teeny-weeny bit of socialism?"[9]
    Most women and minorities were excluded from the benefits of unemployment insurance and old age pensions. Employment definitions reflected typical white male categories and patterns.[10]
    The provisions of Social Security have been changing since the 1930s, shifting in response to economic worries as well as concerns over changing gender roles and the position of minorities. Officials have responded more to the concerns of women than those of minority groups.[11] Social Security gradually moved toward universal coverage. By 1950, debates moved away from which occupational groups should be included to how to provide more adequate coverage.[12] Changes in Social Security have reflected a balance between promoting equality and efforts to provide adequate protection.

  5. #85
    Veteran Member Devil505's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparsely View Post
    That's so disgusting that one would suggest that the government should just ram a program down the people's throats that 50% of them don't want,
    Psst......The majority of that 50% didn't like it because they thought it didn't go far enough. (it will during Obama's 2nd term)

    HC reform was widely popular, one of Obama's campaign promises & one of the main reasons why he was elected.
    What's disgusting is your pushing yet another intentional GOP deception...that the people didn't want hc reform.. (I'll give you credit for being smart enough to know it's a deception.... so I guess you're just lying)
    Last edited by Devil505; 13th July 2012 at 05:41 PM.

  6. #86
    Veteran Member Telecaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mertex View Post
    Why are Republicans in Congress so adamant about killing the Affordable Health Care Act? Because they know that once it is fully implemented they will not be able to fool people into believing that it is a bad program.


    Republicans want to kill the Affordable Healthcare Act in its infancy because they know that once millions of Americans start to experience the benefits and realize how much better it is than what we had before, Obamacare will be with us forever. They coined the term "Obamacare" as a derogatory term, never realizing that we wouldn't take offense, but rather accept and own it as it gives Obama credit for it. Years from now, when even Republicans say "Don't mess with my Obamacare", Obama will be getting the credit for getting this country off that broken system we had before. If it hadn't been for Obama, millions would continue without healthcare insurance.

    As it is, some Republicans already like some of the provisions in Obamacare - so imagine what will happen in 2014, when it goes full bloom?

    Republicans actually like Obamacare - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    This story makes propaganda points in support, but is totally wrong in describing why Reps in Congress want to kill the law. Yes, millions of Americans will like the law because it is better than what they had. But so too, millions will dislike and/or hate the law in comparison. Everyone has their own unique needs, and like any law, this one will dissatisfy as many as it pleases.

    However, there is another reason the GOP fights the bill. They are sure it will stagnate the economy and eventually drive the economy to a bankrupt, or near-bankrupt, status as all heavily socialized economies have experienced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparsely View Post
    That fails to address my primary contention with the assertion that forcefully instituting an intrusive (and largely unwelcome) Federal program on the people of the country is somehow justified by the fact that "they'll get used to it", more or less.
    I find that deplorable.
    I'm sorry. Let me say that I would find some empathy in myself for your plight of not liking our Founding Father's attempts to have a representative democracy, but I just don't have any, because even when it sucks, we still have the best gig going. I hear that Thomas Sowell's libertarian paradise of Somalia would love to show you how they eschew stupid things like Social security, and they absolutely promise to never impose that nasty soshulisim on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparsely View Post
    That's the thing...When you talk about Social Security and its origins, we have to talk about he notion of "retirement".
    When did that silly notion first bubble-up?
    Around the time that economic libertarians sunk the US economy in 1929, or thereafter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telecaster View Post
    This story makes propaganda points in support, but is totally wrong in describing why Reps in Congress want to kill the law. Yes, millions of Americans will like the law because it is better than what they had. But so too, millions will dislike and/or hate the law in comparison. Everyone has their own unique needs, and like any law, this one will dissatisfy as many as it pleases.
    While millions may dislike it for partisan reasons, they will become an ever marginalized minority. That's what happens when legislation like this get more popular. And even many of them who will not like it, won't simply because it's not single payer for all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telecaster View Post
    However, there is another reason the GOP fights the bill. They are sure it will stagnate the economy and eventually drive the economy to a bankrupt, or near-bankrupt, status as all heavily socialized economies have experienced.
    The GOP has done their work and made the economy stagnant. BTW, it's not socialism that are hurting other countries. Its the single currency of the EU not having fiscal unity, like the US does with the dollar.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    Around the time that economic libertarians sunk the US economy in 1929, or thereafter.
    you're going to have to expound upon that argument for me...

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