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Thread: It's shameful and appalling what some here are saying about Nelson Mandela!

  1. #111
    Veteran Member Stefan Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    Alright, see your point..

    What does that have to do with my post? The theme stems from lumping Dr. King in with Mandela. My argument is that they are completely different based on their personal beliefs on violence demonstrated by statements and actions over the course of their lives. You are right that Mandela is not in the same commie class as Ho Chin Minh - No argument there and none suggested. I am not challenging Mandela's reasons for killing or his politics, I am only remembering that he DID kill and that the cost of freedom by any definition is never cheap and should never be forgotten.

    That is the total sum of my theme. Mandela was a great man for many reasons but it did come at a price that should be judged fairly and not forgotten.
    Ok I see where you are coming from and we ( cotton, green, you , me and a couple others) may not be that far apart.

    It's perspective ... I will mention the case of my screen name here Stefan Bandera - he led the OUN - Ukrainian Nationalists fighting first the Germans and then the SOVIET/Russians.

    From 1945 - almost 1952 or 3 the military arm of the OUN the UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army switched from partisan military tactics to concentrated on killing Communist officials and NKVD troops( precursor of KGB but quasi military). Of course the Russian-SOVIETS considered Stefan Bandera a terrorist. I consider him and my dad who was part of the OUN to be patriots and still do.

  2. #112
    Member Cotton2226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    You are a hoot you know that?

    It's fact that Mandela did murder a few police officers and served time for his crimes. I am not saying Mandela isn't a great man for a number of reasons - but as I said in another post here a moment ago, freedom by any definition is not free and we should not forget those who died along the path of freedom.
    Doesn't remove the fact that you got away from discussing the facts and started the uneducated, ignorant, etc. comments. That is typical Republican tea-party via Rush Limbaugh's rhetoric. Your first post was that of a Libertarian/moderate. Then it got ugly. So be it.

    I'll fight for Mandela's place in History as a person who by whatever means made this a better world. We wasn't there when those conversations took place. How those killings came down, we don't know. Things get complicated when people are fighting the oppressors.

    In closing, I'm no Phi Beta Kappa, but I do know when people are being unfair in their comments. Just look into the eyes of Nelson Mandela....he was not a bad person. He lived during that oppression. I can remember as a kid seeing those white only drinking fountains... couldn't understand that. I grew up in the projects. My best friends lived in my neighborhood and they were Black. I could look out my bedroom window and see into the windows of my Black friends. I became a "gym rat" and played basketball in the South Eastern Conference. Played against Pistol Pete, Pat Riley, and some other good players. I'm saying this for one reason. I understand oppressed people more than most. No "silver spoon" stuck up my ass. I worked for what I got. Graduated in 4 years with a 2.8. Worked for a large corporation for 25 years and retired at age 57 financially sound. So don't tell me about what I know and don't know about people that have been "kicked in the teeth" like the Mandela's of this sorry ass world.

    One more thing, I'm anti-abortion, anti-capital punishment, live on what one makes, and against war at ALL cost. My Dad landed on Normandy D-Day and came home a mental vegetable. I voted for Obama. I voted for George Herman Bush both times. Voted for Reagan. I'm an Independent asshole.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARMCX1 View Post
    It's sort of interesting that some are condemning Mandela for resorting to violence after the 1960 Sharpsburg massacre. Mandela's decision was not unlike the decision our founding fathers made in 1776. In the case of 1776, revolutionary violence is sacrosanct and enshrined in patriotic glory. In the case of Mandela, he is condemned by some for resorting to violence in 1960.
    He used violence, when he was younger.

    But, then, he RENOUNCED violence, later in his life.

    Exactly as many other great leaders throughout human history.
    Thanks from ARMCX1

  4. #114
    Veteran Member Snikitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
    After all, the Americans pay for the child-murdering terrorists occupying Palestine. What's the problem - decency?

    While Islamic Nations ship weapons to Palestine so the child-murdering Palestinians can slaughter little Israeli school girls riding their bus to school, or launch missiles into neighborhoods

    The issue is complicated and does need resolve - even as the U.S. supports Israel, it provides massive human relief funds yearly, for decades to feed the Palestinians forgotten by their Islamic brothers to starve in refugee camps.

  5. #115
    Member Cotton2226's Avatar
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    Well, just as I thought... have a great day folks!

  6. #116
    Member Iolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    While Islamic Nations ship weapons to Palestine so the child-murdering Palestinians can slaughter little Israeli school girls riding their bus to school, or launch missiles into neighborhoods

    The issue is complicated and does need resolve - even as the U.S. supports Israel, it provides massive human relief funds yearly, for decades to feed the Palestinians forgotten by their Islamic brothers to starve in refugee camps.
    Whose country is it for a start, nutter? If the Russians were occupying your country what would your view be? Do grow up and stop supporting these Nazi racists. The Nazis have killed 2,000 of the people's children as against 123 dead Nazi children, as you'd know if you weren't just making propaganda.
    Last edited by Iolo; 6th December 2013 at 08:55 AM.

  7. #117
    Veteran Member Snikitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton2226 View Post
    Doesn't remove the fact that you got away from discussing the facts and started the uneducated, ignorant, etc. comments. That is typical Republican tea-party via Rush Limbaugh's rhetoric. Your first post was that of a Libertarian/moderate. Then it got ugly. So be it.

    I'll fight for Mandela's place in History as a person who by whatever means made this a better world. We wasn't there when those conversations took place. How those killings came down, we don't know. Things get complicated when people are fighting the oppressors.

    In closing, I'm no Phi Beta Kappa, but I do know when people are being unfair in their comments. Just look into the eyes of Nelson Mandela....he was not a bad person. He lived during that oppression. I can remember as a kid seeing those white only drinking fountains... couldn't understand that. I grew up in the projects. My best friends lived in my neighborhood and they were Black. I could look out my bedroom window and see into the windows of my Black friends. I became a "gym rat" and played basketball in the South Eastern Conference. Played against Pistol Pete, Pat Riley, and some other good players. I'm saying this for one reason. I understand oppressed people more than most. No "silver spoon" stuck up my ass. I worked for what I got. Graduated in 4 years with a 2.8. Worked for a large corporation for 25 years and retired at age 57 financially sound. So don't tell me about what I know and don't know about people that have been "kicked in the teeth" like the Mandela's of this sorry ass world.

    One more thing, I'm anti-abortion, anti-capital punishment, live on what one makes, and against war at ALL cost. My Dad landed on Normandy D-Day and came home a mental vegetable. I voted for Obama. I voted for George Herman Bush both times. Voted for Reagan. I'm an Independent asshole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton2226 View Post
    I'll fight for Mandela's place in History as a person who by whatever means made this a better world. We wasn't there when those conversations took place. How those killings came down, we don't know. Things get complicated when people are fighting the oppressors.
    How many times in these thread have I said the same thing? How are why people died isn't as important as the fact that they DID die. You seem to be saying that we should simply edit them out, and the sacrifice of their lives from the history books. Mandela deserves a place in history, and the respect of his people for being willing to kill for his beliefs and for the future of his people. That does not mean he is comparable to Dr. King, but it does mean he is comparable to any other man who would kill for his beliefs. Mandela's legacy should be the whole truth, not just a glorified fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton2226 View Post
    In closing, I'm no Phi Beta Kappa, but I do know when people are being unfair in their comments. Just look into the eyes of Nelson Mandela....he was not a bad person. He lived during that oppression. I can remember as a kid seeing those white only drinking fountains... couldn't understand that. I grew up in the projects. My best friends lived in my neighborhood and they were Black. I could look out my bedroom window and see into the windows of my Black friends. I became a "gym rat" and played basketball in the South Eastern Conference. Played against Pistol Pete, Pat Riley, and some other good players. I'm saying this for one reason. I understand oppressed people more than most. No "silver spoon" stuck up my ass. I worked for what I got. Graduated in 4 years with a 2.8. Worked for a large corporation for 25 years and retired at age 57 financially sound. So don't tell me about what I know and don't know about people that have been "kicked in the teeth" like the Mandela's of this sorry ass world.
    I am not being unfair in anyway what so ever to Mandela. I am simply sticking to the history behind his achievements. The man is dead - lets consider the totality of his life and not just the parts we like best. I grew up in the deep south where color became second to the oppression of extreme poverty. You remember the projects, I remember foster homes and living on the street. You had black friends, I married my 16 yr old black girlfriend when she sort of accidentally got pregnant. I joined the army at 17 to give her and our baby a life. You never understood white only water fountains, I had to teach my daughter to never think she is second best just because she ain't lilly white. You played ball with some great players, I got my ass kicked a few times for standing up for my interracial marriage. You got a 2.8, I went boot-strap in the army and earned mine that way. Your dad came back from Normandy a vegetable, I drove over a mine n Bosnia. We're both anti-abortion. I'll provide the bullet and pull the trigger on a serial rapist. You won't go to war - but I'll fight for your right not too. I didn't vote for any of the bushes, did vote for Clinton twice and would have voted for Cain.

    What does this all mean? Not a damn thing. All the education and experience in the world won't make a man educated if he refused to use all the information available to him and maintain an open mind. Yes Mandela achieved some great things and yes he deserves a place in history but that does not change his history - which includes murder and leading an organization which used torture, intimidation and murder as a means of attaining political goals. Considering the kind of people Mandala faces, this is perhaps understandable - I don't judge that. All I am saying is the whole truth should be remembered, and perhaps most importantly that latter in life Mandela turned away from violence and dedicated the remainder of his life to reconciliation.
    Thanks from TennesseeRain

  8. #118
    Member Cotton2226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snikitz View Post
    How many times in these thread have I said the same thing? How are why people died isn't as important as the fact that they DID die. You seem to be saying that we should simply edit them out, and the sacrifice of their lives from the history books. Mandela deserves a place in history, and the respect of his people for being willing to kill for his beliefs and for the future of his people. That does not mean he is comparable to Dr. King, but it does mean he is comparable to any other man who would kill for his beliefs. Mandela's legacy should be the whole truth, not just a glorified fiction.



    I am not being unfair in anyway what so ever to Mandela. I am simply sticking to the history behind his achievements. The man is dead - lets consider the totality of his life and not just the parts we like best. I grew up in the deep south where color became second to the oppression of extreme poverty. You remember the projects, I remember foster homes and living on the street. You had black friends, I married my 16 yr old black girlfriend when she sort of accidentally got pregnant. I joined the army at 17 to give her and our baby a life. You never understood white only water fountains, I had to teach my daughter to never think she is second best just because she ain't lilly white. You played ball with some great players, I got my ass kicked a few times for standing up for my interracial marriage. You got a 2.8, I went boot-strap in the army and earned mine that way. Your dad came back from Normandy a vegetable, I drove over a mine n Bosnia. We're both anti-abortion. I'll provide the bullet and pull the trigger on a serial rapist. You won't go to war - but I'll fight for your right not too. I didn't vote for any of the bushes, did vote for Clinton twice and would have voted for Cain.

    What does this all mean? Not a damn thing. All the education and experience in the world won't make a man educated if he refused to use all the information available to him and maintain an open mind. Yes Mandela achieved some great things and yes he deserves a place in history but that does not change his history - which includes murder and leading an organization which used torture, intimidation and murder as a means of attaining political goals. Considering the kind of people Mandala faces, this is perhaps understandable - I don't judge that. All I am saying is the whole truth should be remembered, and perhaps most importantly that latter in life Mandela turned away from violence and dedicated the remainder of his life to reconciliation.
    bye.

  9. #119
    Veteran Member Snikitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
    Whose country is it for a start, nutter? If the Russians were occupying your country what would your view be? Do grow up and strop supporting these Nazi racists. The Nazis have killed 2,000 of the people's children as against 123 Nazi children, as you'd know if you weren't just making propaganda.
    Pull your head out of your ass and give it a good shake would ya? Shake loose some of the shit so you can think straight.

    If Russians occupied the U.S. I would focus on killing off military, police and political representatives of my enemy - not his children directly.

    Nazi children? what the are you talking about? Do you refer to Israeli children as "nazi children?" Are you one of those idiots who think the holocaust never happened?

    Propaganda? You are probably too young to remember the Avivim school bus massacre. Brave Palestinian freedom fighters used anti-armor rockets on a school bus carrying girls off to school killing 12 girls.

    Perhaps if Palestinians didn't put their children at the front of riots against armed soldiers... fewer would get killed.

  10. #120
    your better Rev. Hellh0und's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
    After all, the Americans pay for the child-murdering terrorists occupying Palestine. What's the problem - decency?


    Hate breed hate bro, don't be such an anti-semite.

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