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Thread: Too Much Regulation

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Pensions? The problem with pensions is not "too much regulation." The problem with pensions is that pensions are fundamentally idiotic and abusive at their core. They're a bad concept. They need to go away permanently. And not only that, they need to go away permanently without inflicting long-term pension liabilities on non-pensioners.
    Why? Is there something wrong with a group investing in the markets for long-term profits to be disbursed to its members according to whatever formula they agree upon? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    Unless their investments are in piece-of-shit mortgage-backed securities that would be rated triple-X if the banks were regulated by anyone but themselves.

    Let me guess: you think every one of those individuals should invest that money on their own, and provide for their own retirement. And when they overwhelmingly fail to invest or invest poorly, and have nothing in their old age, your solution is...what exactly? "Too bad, you shouldn'ta been such a dummy! Git off mah lawn an' get a job, old timer!" Something like that?

    Stands to reason that really unions should all be destroyed, too. Any sort of organization of people must be stamped out...

    ...but aren't corporations just big organizations of people? And they want to win. So they spin this yarn about how individuals and unions are lazy shiftless bums with their hands out, but corporations-- just another group of people --are somehow above reproach, somehow assumed to be relentlessly creating real growth, real value, helping everything around them. So they petition the government, which they now own, for one handout after another, and that's okay, because they're "good". And the middle class keeps melting away.

    Honestly, that our political machines have managed to subvert our natural human tendency to actually give a shit about each other...it's kind of impressive, if you think about it.
    Last edited by splansing; 16th December 2016 at 12:30 PM.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    I agree with BigLeRoy. Well put. May I copy and use this elsewhere?
    Why not? Nobody's listening anyway.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Why? Is there something wrong with a group investing in the markets for long-term profits to be disbursed to its members according to whatever formula they agree upon? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
    What you just described is reasonable. That's not what pensions do though.

    Let me guess: you think every one of those individuals should invest that money on their own
    I'm saying every one of those individuals should be compensated in whatever manner expenses the cost of that compensation in the period the person provides his or her services. I give no shit if it's in cash dollars or chickens, and I give no shit if that person spends all that compensation on treasury bonds or lottery tickets. People should not be able to compensate others, or be compensated themselves, using long-term liabilities that can and will be borne by a non-party to the transaction/contract. That precludes the existence of pensions.

    And when they overwhelmingly fail to invest or invest poorly, and have nothing in their old age, your solution is...what exactly?
    Welfare.

    Stands to reason that really unions should all be destroyed, too.
    Abso-fucking-lutely, 100%. But for different reasons than pensions.

    Any sort of organization of people must be stamped out...
    Don't go full tard on me now, you were just beginning to put it all together.

    ...but aren't corporations just big organizations of people? And they want to win.
    Everyone does, and everyone would infringe on the rights of others to do so if they could get away with it. Regulations are needed to make sure no organization of people, whether it's a single member LLC or a corporation or a group of workers who are forming a club amongst themselves, should be able to in and of themselves infringe on anyone's rights so that they may "win." Some corporations and perhaps industries as a whole enjoy very special privileges in this regard and these in particular should be the targets of our scrutiny and dissent. Labor unions also enjoy very special privileges regarding legalized coercion and these should also be the target of our dissent. People need to stop telling themselves that unions are the lone remaining champion of the little guy. They are not.

    corporations-- just another group of people --are somehow above reproach
    No they're not.

    Honestly, that our political machines have managed to subvert our natural human tendency to actually give a shit about each other...it's kind of impressive, if you think about it.
    I do agree with you there. There is a remarkable amount of "empathy theater" going on in politics. It's been this way for millennia and always will be. Our responsibility is to be informed, because an informed populace is the only counterbalance to this age-old problem.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 16th December 2016 at 11:10 PM.

  4. #44
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    I dunno. I don't see any grounds for me to tell people they cannot organize themselves into a union, sign up, pay dues, agree to by-laws, etc, and participate willingly in all of it, including the pension. It's only a ponzi scheme if the returns are built on the backs of future suckers, rather than reasonable performance in the markets. The only time pensions run into problems is when the mechanisms they are built on are submarined by shenanigans, like when the market is completely owned and rigged.

    So I guess, in a weird way, I agree with you, because at the moment our markets are rotten to the core, so I'm not sure what exactly you could base a pension on. Some fucking shark will pay off some regulator to look the other way, and start selling triple-X trash to pensions wrapped in a nice triple-A box, collect massive fees for their effort, while shorting the garbage they're selling all along, so the pensions are like sheep just being harvested. I'm sure somehow they're supposed to know better, but that means they're supposed to believe that the marketplace is utterly corrupt and untrustworthy and they should not participate in it. People start operating on that assumption and we're all in a world of shit.

    Unions are a shell of their former selves. If there is a balance to be struck between organized labor and management, it's way out of whack right now. Only about 5% of private sector employees are even in a union. They were vilified (rightfully so) when the pendulum had swung the other way, and they became instruments of corruption themselves. That doesn't mean unions don't work, or are bad. It means that like always, power attracts the corruptible.

    I actually think we've reached the point where the power has swung so far the other direction, into the hands of a few oligarchs, that we're due to swing back the other way again to sort things out. It would be nice if we could do that without a huge shit storm, but it's never been done before. Last time things were this out of whack it actually took TWO world wars to sort it all out.
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  5. #45
    Veteran Member MaryAnne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I would think maybe an HOUR of training would be enough to handle that safety risk.
    Ooh, boy,you have never had your scalp burnt,or hair fall out. Never mind the right color when you get a bleach or dye job,

    I think Trump should sue his hair dresser for that orange color.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    I dunno. I don't see any grounds for me to tell people they cannot organize themselves into a union, sign up, pay dues, agree to by-laws, etc, and participate willingly in all of it,
    It should be strictly voluntary to join, strictly voluntary to pay any type of dues, and strictly voluntary for employers to negotiate or sign agreements with any such groups.

    including the pension
    Pensions should be illegal. They don't work. They promote irresponsibility and a sense of entitlement, and greater harm to future generations. Why do you think they're being phased out?

    It's only a ponzi scheme if the returns are built on the backs of future suckers
    They always are. If all pensions had benefits adjusted to the extent they are (or become) unfunded, that'd be a different story. But in that case there'd have been no point to pensions. The entire point of pensions was to be able to pin liabilities for sacrosanct benefits onto a future generation that couldn't object once the bills came due.

    Unions are a shell of their former selves. If there is a balance to be struck between organized labor and management, it's way out of whack right now
    The most unionized sectors of the economy are the three levels of government, public education, and public utilities.

    I actually think we've reached the point where the power has swung so far the other direction, into the hands of a few oligarchs,
    Municipal government isn't managed by "oligarchs," nor are municipal workers this enslaved disempowered exploited bunch, nor is there some "out-of-whack" power imbalance between ho-hum municipal managers and public employees... yet municipal government is THE most unionized sector of the American economy. Why is that, exactly? The similar is true of state government, and federal government, and public utilities. There is no actual valid reason for this that unions can honestly explain, these sectors are just low-hanging fruit for them. It's much easier to divide and conquer these disparate public sector managers than it is the private sector.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 1st January 2017 at 10:28 AM.

  7. #47
    Veteran Member Panzareta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It should be strictly voluntary to join, strictly voluntary to pay any type of dues, and strictly voluntary for employers to negotiate or sign agreements with any such groups.



    Pensions should be illegal. They don't work. They promote irresponsibility and a sense of entitlement, and greater harm to future generations. Why do you think they're being phased out?



    They always are. If all pensions had benefits adjusted to the extent they are (or become) unfunded, that'd be a different story. But in that case there'd have been no point to pensions. The entire point of pensions was to be able to pin liabilities for sacrosanct benefits onto a future generation that couldn't object once the bills came due.



    The most unionized sectors of the economy are the three levels of government, public education, and public utilities.



    Municipal government isn't managed by "oligarchs," nor are municipal workers this enslaved disempowered exploited bunch, nor is there some "out-of-whack" power imbalance between ho-hum municipal managers and public employees... yet municipal government is THE most unionized sector of the American economy. Why is that, exactly? The similar is true of state government, and federal government, and public utilities. There is no actual valid reason for this that unions can honestly explain, these sectors are just low-hanging fruit for them. It's much easier to divide and conquer these disparate public sector managers than it is the private sector.
    Too bad that the business community has to be regulated but they just can't be trusted to do the right thing without coercion. That damned profit motive apparently interferes with their ability to be ethical.

  8. #48
    Veteran Member Moorhuhn Wanted Champion Hollywood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNVolunteer73 View Post
    enough to keep us reasonably safe.. not put us in a air tight plastic bubble.
    Reasonably safe from exactly what, and who gets to decide what exactly constitutes "reasonably?"

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzareta View Post
    Too bad that the business community has to be regulated but they just can't be trusted to do the right thing without coercion. That damned profit motive apparently interferes with their ability to be ethical.
    You've got to be a complete idiot to blame public pensions' abysmal pathetic failure on "the profit motive" and "the business community."

  10. #50
    Veteran Member Panzareta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You've got to be a complete idiot to blame public pensions' abysmal pathetic failure on "the profit motive" and "the business community."
    How have public pensions been a failure? You do know that most pensions consist of money that were earned but instead of being paid to the employee went into the pension fund instead. But like I said too bad the profit motive creates such unethical behavior in the business community that they have to be forced to do the right thing.

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