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Thread: The old solutions to economics....won't work anymore-

  1. #31
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
    There is only one side of the equation that we have much control over.
    Still waiting on the "And be as specific as possible" part?


    Or are you too embarassed to say?

  2. #32
    Veteran Member GordonGecko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Especially since Trump is determined to lower corporate taxes. And I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as we cut out the loopholes that corporations take advantage of, as Obama suggested. While the current tax rate is 35%, almost no corporations pay that rate and the few that do are too small to take advantage of the loopholes. The effective tax rate is much lower than 35%.

    U.S. Companies Lobbying Furiously To Save Corporate Tax Loopholes: Study | The Huffington Post

    As is typical of the Republicans?

    They'll cut the corporate tax AND leave the loopholes in place.

    Thus drying up revenues....doing little if anything to spur capital investment....and simply enriching the CEOs, even of companies that off-shore and out-source.
    Thanks from OldGaffer

  3. #33
    Junior Member Two If By Tea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    We face going into the 21st Century a MASSIVE economic shift....probably unseen since the start of the Industrial Revolution and move away from agrarianism.

    To a lesser extent, the loss of jobs like coal mining. Eventually the move away from fossil fuels will also hit oil and natural gas jobs as well. This is inevitable.

    Even if you are a Climate Change Denier?...green energy is the future, if for the simple fact that solar/wind is much cheaper than fossil fuels.



    But the major issue is manufacturing. First way it hit the United States was the rise of Asia....first Japan, then China. Their huge labor force, lack of environmental regulation, and ability to pay workers $1 a day wages...

    put American manufacturing from furniture to shampoo on the fast track to oblivion. While the Gephardt Left and Pat Buchanan Right tried to stop it, the Clinton Left and the GOP Big Business Right fostered it. Now? It's too late. Trump's phony promises of tariffs would destroy the economy by boosting inflation for consumer goods...for the poor, working, and middle class shopping at Target and Walmart.


    And close on its heels...will be SERVICE jobs. Lost to...automation. We're already seeing talk of burger joints that are almost fully automated. You can't cut Minimum Wage enough, conservatives, to stop McDonalds when it can operate a robot on 8-10 cents an hour of electricity and maybe $200 a YEAR in maintenance.

    So the old Reagan Conservative economic solutions won' work. Tax cuts for the wealthy ("jobs creators") and corporations...won't stop them from out-sourcing to Asia or replacing workers with automation.

    And talk of bringing back protectionism (either from the left or from the Trump Right)....won't fly either.


    Which means the Democratic Party better get serious about re-training and education promotion...or the GOP will abandon Reaganism and begin to do it.

    Not sure what to make of this ...

    Although Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity seem to be "Talking Points" set and devoted to Ronald Regan policies

  4. #34
    Junior Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    I heard a podcast this week with a group of AI experts, one heads the AI team at Google. He said that they are working on AI systems that can do simple tasks such as visual recognition to create systems that can simulate our own eyesight and then process it to do tasks. While not truly a full AI system, they are creating subsets of human consciousness to do simple things first in order to build robots and devices that inevitably will replace humans or existing machines. This type of effort will increase, it will never stop. A fully functional AI system is far away but it does not need to pass a Turing Test in order to threaten current jobs. At the end of the day, as machines and systems replace workers and generate more profits for corporations and shareholders, most of us will have very few options to make a living. That time will come and when it does we have two certain options:

    1. The time honored and historically repetitive revolution and upheaval.
    2. Redistribution of wealth via some form of universal wage or government sponsored job.

    Whether you like it or not, this is the future.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Odd thing is....it's a recipe for DISASTER for the wealthy.....from the French Revolution to the Russian Revolution.

    As a country becomes more plutocratic...it becomes more oppressive....80-90% of the population becomes poor or near-poor......revolution becomes inevitable. And that usually ends "badly" for the Plutocrats (and their supporters).

    It's why men from wealthy families like Teddy Roosevelt and FDR CLEARLY saw the need for economic reform.

    But today's Rightwing Rich (or their working class and middle class dupes) have completely forgotten the application of the lessons of history.
    Perhaps they think they are clever enough to avoid the lessons of history.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    Especially since Trump is determined to lower corporate taxes. And I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as we cut out the loopholes that corporations take advantage of, as Obama suggested. While the current tax rate is 35%, almost no corporations pay that rate and the few that do are too small to take advantage of the loopholes. The effective tax rate is much lower than 35%.



    U.S. Companies Lobbying Furiously To Save Corporate Tax Loopholes: Study | The Huffington Post
    Maybe there is a deal to be made here - corporations get lower tax rates, and the peeps get a $15 minimum wage.

  7. #37
    Junior Member Two If By Tea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    We face going into the 21st Century a MASSIVE economic shift....probably unseen since the start of the Industrial Revolution and move away from agrarianism.

    To a lesser extent, the loss of jobs like coal mining. Eventually the move away from fossil fuels will also hit oil and natural gas jobs as well. This is inevitable.

    Even if you are a Climate Change Denier?...green energy is the future, if for the simple fact that solar/wind is much cheaper than fossil fuels.



    But the major issue is manufacturing. First way it hit the United States was the rise of Asia....first Japan, then China. Their huge labor force, lack of environmental regulation, and ability to pay workers $1 a day wages...

    put American manufacturing from furniture to shampoo on the fast track to oblivion. While the Gephardt Left and Pat Buchanan Right tried to stop it, the Clinton Left and the GOP Big Business Right fostered it. Now? It's too late. Trump's phony promises of tariffs would destroy the economy by boosting inflation for consumer goods...for the poor, working, and middle class shopping at Target and Walmart.


    And close on its heels...will be SERVICE jobs. Lost to...automation. We're already seeing talk of burger joints that are almost fully automated. You can't cut Minimum Wage enough, conservatives, to stop McDonalds when it can operate a robot on 8-10 cents an hour of electricity and maybe $200 a YEAR in maintenance.

    So the old Reagan Conservative economic solutions won' work. Tax cuts for the wealthy ("jobs creators") and corporations...won't stop them from out-sourcing to Asia or replacing workers with automation.

    And talk of bringing back protectionism (either from the left or from the Trump Right)....won't fly either.


    Which means the Democratic Party better get serious about re-training and education promotion...or the GOP will abandon Reaganism and begin to do it.


    You should advise the GOP....

    They always go back to the Reagan era ....

    Trickle Down policies of a generation past

  8. #38
    Swamper chaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    And close on its heels...will be SERVICE jobs. Lost to...automation. We're already seeing talk of burger joints that are almost fully automated. You can't cut Minimum Wage enough, conservatives, to stop McDonalds when it can operate a robot on 8-10 cents an hour of electricity and maybe $200 a YEAR in maintenance.
    Another good post, Gordon. Is that your original work? How did you come up with your numbers? Government is handing out tax breaks to companies that automate but the numbers never add up. It may cost them $2 million to cut 6 jobs. Six x $50,000 a year will take almost 7 years to break even. I know a little about automation and can't imagine maintenance being anywhere near $200 a year. It cost that much to have a tech come in for a few hours.

  9. #39
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    Now, more than ever, we need a shift to economic democracy.

    The first phase should be the Nordic model. It is the best way to organize capitalism in the 21st century. The second phase should be in crafting policy to make it easier to start worker cooperatives, community supported agriculture, and community supported utilities that can interconnect and form federations.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Both parties were fairly "conservative".....up to 1929.


    I hope it doesn't happen like it did then

    Today, it seems more "slow rot" than "lightning strike" (like the Crash and the Great Depression).....

    but a crises is coming, if not already upon us.

    And again, the old paradigm of the Right of "more tax cuts for the rich and corporations, more de-regulation, and gutting 'welfare' programs".....

    won't work.



    Part of TRUMP's appeal are those displaced workers......unfortunately, they bought Trump's PHONY promises of "bringing back manufacturing jobs" with trade wars, tariffs, etc......which either won't happen or will be massively counter-productive.


    So some party....Dems or Repubs....will have to come up with more viable solutions and the Democrats are in a better position ideologically to do that, not the GOP.
    Credit is driving us towards a huge crash, larger than the 2008 crash. This is being driven by ballooning student debt, as well as just personal credit card debt. Since people don't make the money that they used to, they use credit to maintain the same lifestyle, but that bill eventually comes due, and when millions in debt aren't able to make their payments, down comes the house of cards.

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