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Thread: Wal-Marts & Amazon Watched the American Middle Class Die

  1. #41
    Scucca Æthelfrith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    The impending death of old brick-and-mortar retailers like J.C. Penney's, Macy's, Sears & Roebuck, companies that have failed to adapt to the Internet Age, is simply another example of Schumpeterian creative destruction. Trying to stop it would be about as effective as trying to stop the tides. Amazon in particular is paving the way to a future in which most Americans (and maybe most people in the world) will soon be getting almost all the stuff they need simply delivered to their homes. Perhaps by drones. This will be VASTLY more energy-efficient than the more traditional ways of shopping. It will be a GOOD thing for helping to create a more sustainable civilization. We should applaud it.
    Attempts to refer to Schumpeter do tend to make me smile. Folk, often those sympathetic to Austrian economic perspective, try to restrict it to the notion that the neoclassical approach to monopoly power is inaccurate (with the notion of temporary profit driving the innovation process and capitalism's success). They forget to mention, mind you, that Schumpeter used the concept to conclude that socialism should be the expected outcome. Indeed, through creative destruction, Schumpeter derives a similar overall analysis to Marx.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller47 View Post
    Competition is good for the American consumer.
    And so is corporate welfare?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    The impending death of old brick-and-mortar retailers like J.C. Penney's, Macy's, Sears & Roebuck, companies that have failed to adapt to the Internet Age, is simply another example of Schumpeterian creative destruction. Trying to stop it would be about as effective as trying to stop the tides. Amazon in particular is paving the way to a future in which most Americans (and maybe most people in the world) will soon be getting almost all the stuff they need simply delivered to their homes. Perhaps by drones. This will be VASTLY more energy-efficient than the more traditional ways of shopping. It will be a GOOD thing for helping to create a more sustainable civilization. We should applaud it.
    I get all that..but boy are we starting to become lazy. It's good to get out of the house to go shopping sometimes (and support your local business) and remember what it is like to interact with people. Something that is good for the body, mind an soul that we seem to be quickly losing and instead just sit on the couch ...
    Thanks from BigLeRoy and Misty Rose

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    I get all that..but boy are we starting to become lazy. It's good to get out of the house to go shopping sometimes (and support your local business) and remember what it is like to interact with people. Something that is good for the body, mind an soul that we seem to be quickly losing and instead just sit on the couch ...
    The post you quoted referred to brick and mortar retailers, naming a few that are associated with large indoor shopping malls, which, if you've been out for a drive lately, would realize are very often huge corporate chains. They are not "your local businesses."

    What is it about a shopping mall that you actually think is "good for the body, mind and soul?" Are you serious? How could anything be farther from the truth? They are enormous, inefficient, crawling corporate jungles that sell crap food and foreign made junk. It is incalculably worse for the environment to heat enormous indoor spaces where people need to get in their minivans and SUVs and drive long distances to it, compared to the age of the internet which is replacing the retail model of the 1900s.

    More people would have jobs being farmers if tractors like the one picture below were still used to plow fields, but how much gas and oil did those things burn? Why should we cling to inefficiency? Why do you think that trying to think up reasons to shame people for laziness is a good argument for trying to preserve less efficient business models?

    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 13th June 2017 at 05:27 PM.
    Thanks from BigLeRoy

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The post you quoted referred to brick and mortar retailers, naming a few that are associated with large indoor shopping malls, which, if you've been out for a drive lately, would realize are very often huge corporate chains. They are not "your local businesses."

    What is it about a shopping mall that you actually think is "good for the body, mind and soul?" Are you serious? How could anything be farther from the truth? They are enormous, inefficient, crawling corporate jungles that sell crap food and foreign made junk. It is incalculably worse for the environment to heat enormous indoor spaces where people need to get in their minivans and SUVs and drive long distances to it, compared to the age of the internet which is replacing the retail model of the 1900s.

    More people would have jobs being farmers if tractors like the one picture below were still used to plow fields, but how much gas and oil did those things burn? Why should we cling to inefficiency? Why do you think that trying to think up reasons to shame people for laziness is a good argument for trying to preserve less efficient business models?

    No I was talking about my own local business. People I have gone to for years and actually know my name. Sure some of the things I buy I could get from Amazon, but it's good not to be sitting on your couch. I enjoy the interactions with them and the other customer's they have. Feels like a lost art these days.

    We have a big thriving mall in my area. I rarely go there because it's a PITA.

  6. #46
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelfrith View Post
    Attempts to refer to Schumpeter do tend to make me smile. Folk, often those sympathetic to Austrian economic perspective, try to restrict it to the notion that the neoclassical approach to monopoly power is inaccurate (with the notion of temporary profit driving the innovation process and capitalism's success). They forget to mention, mind you, that Schumpeter used the concept to conclude that socialism should be the expected outcome. Indeed, through creative destruction, Schumpeter derives a similar overall analysis to Marx.
    I am a sharp critic of Austrian economics. Schumpeter should NOT be classified as an Austrian economist, despite the fact that he was from Austria. That is a mere coincidence, as his views diverged rather sharply from the true Austrian economists on a number of issues, not least of which was the ultimate survivability of capitalism. But Schumpeter's analysis also differed very much from that of Marx; Schumpeter thought in the late 1940s that capitalism had at least another good run or two (by which he meant LONG business cycles of the Kondratiev sort) before it would devolve into socialism.

  7. #47
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    I get all that..but boy are we starting to become lazy. It's good to get out of the house to go shopping sometimes (and support your local business) and remember what it is like to interact with people. Something that is good for the body, mind an soul that we seem to be quickly losing and instead just sit on the couch ...
    I understand. People have worried about the dehumanizing effects of technology since at least the dawn of the Industrial Age (if not much earlier). But, you know, we are actually going out to EAT more. We interact with people in restaurants, don't we? Of course restaurants are going to get more and more automated, too----except at the very high end, where people WANT human waiters.

  8. #48
    Scucca Æthelfrith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I am a sharp critic of Austrian economics. Schumpeter should NOT be classified as an Austrian economist, despite the fact that he was from Austria. That is a mere coincidence, as his views diverged rather sharply from the true Austrian economists on a number of issues, not least of which was the ultimate survivability of capitalism. But Schumpeter's analysis also differed very much from that of Marx; Schumpeter thought in the late 1940s that capitalism had at least another good run or two (by which he meant LONG business cycles of the Kondratiev sort) before it would devolve into socialism.
    In terms of creative destruction, there is no significant difference with Marx. The narrative is effectively the same.

    The truth of course is that we should be careful with reliance on the concept. To use it to ignore the destructive impact of market concentration will ensure naive policy.

  9. #49
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelfrith View Post
    In terms of creative destruction, there is no significant difference with Marx. The narrative is effectively the same.

    The truth of course is that we should be careful with reliance on the concept. To use it to ignore the destructive impact of market concentration will ensure naive policy.
    The Euro-zone economies decided that they did not like the social disruptions associated with the destructive side of Schumpeterian 'creative destruction', and so they have basically pursued policies to inhibit the entire process. But there is a sharp cost to this. Prevent the destructive side of the coin, and you won't get the constructive side. And the end result, for Europe, has been stagnant and sclerotic economies, with little technological dynamism. There is a reason why the most dominant tech companies in the world are almost all American (Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Tesla, Microsoft, Intel, and I could go on and on). We have been more willing to allow the blooms of creative destruction to flower in America.

    I am glad about that. I do NOT want to 'Europeanize' the American economy. Quelle horreur!!

  10. #50
    Scucca Æthelfrith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    The Euro-zone economies decided that they did not like the social disruptions associated with the destructive side of Schumpeterian 'creative destruction', and so they have basically pursued policies to inhibit the entire process. But there is a sharp cost to this. Prevent the destructive side of the coin, and you won't get the constructive side. And the end result, for Europe, has been stagnant and sclerotic economies, with little technological dynamism. There is a reason why the most dominant tech companies in the world are almost all American (Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Tesla, Microsoft, Intel, and I could go on and on). We have been more willing to allow the blooms of creative destruction to flower in America.

    I am glad about that. I do NOT want to 'Europeanize' the American economy. Quelle horreur!!
    Sorry, but this is meaningless drivel. You've replied to a comment referring to the difficulties in applying creative destruction to general policy over competition policy with vacuous comment over Europe. Try again! I'm classed as a Europhobe but content is always useful

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