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Thread: Amazon and Food Stamps

  1. #51
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    There is no need to rehash, I understand how it works. But in context of this subject - is your point is the bad outweighs the good? Because you left out the part about how that company that creates jobs also creates a smaller pool of welfare recipients... in context to this specific case.
    The bad outweighs the good? I don't see the bad in it. A city wants Amazon to come or a state, like New York does. They give tax breaks for a number of years. The area gets jobs.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    What does that mean? Amazon is on track to break $200b in 2017 alone. Are you suggesting that Amazon would be gone if they had to pay that $1b in taxes?

    Explain it to me if you'd be so kind.
    No, it means the states or municipalities desperate for Amazon to set up business there think that Amazon's presence is better than not having Amazon's presence, regardless of whether they directly tax the company a single penny or not. These governments really want people and commerce coming into their cities and think more activity (even if they don't tax it) will create spinoff benefits that will make the place better off than if Amazon went somewhere else.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    Do you understand the concept of found money? If a town has a piece of land that is sitting vacant, it brings in maybe a thousand dollars a year in taxes, if that. But if a company comes and locates there, it suddenly has the potential to generate a lot of growth for the community. These tax breaks do not cost the city anything. They do not have to write a check. They simply allow the corporation to not have to pay most of what they would have paid in taxes for a period of time. What does the city get? They get jobs for their citizens. They get some of the taxes, certainly more than they got for the vacant land.
    Liberal and conservative states alike have tried under the guidance of all sorts of politicians to pay off corporations to set up shop in their state. It doesn't work out. Those taxes they are supposed to be collecting don't show up. Because it turns out there is a reason we collect taxes on businesses like that: they eat services, use infrastructure, increase wear and tear on everything, demand more fire and police and garbage and sewer and everything else. New Jersey was extremely aggressive about paying corporations to move in. Still is. How's that bottom line looking, NJ?

    https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings

    Oddly enough, in a Liberal state like NJ, which goes Democrat in every national election, Republicans have held a lot of sway at the state and local levels. Here's a word for you to research: grift.

    "Vacant land"??!! In fucking New Jersey??!!! Have you ever been to NJ? Some of the richest farmland in the world, proximity to multiple ports and the hub of the world's finance. Why the hell should NJ be paying corporations to come to NJ? But they did. And they do. It doesn't work. It's just another aspect of the great lie, Trickle Down Economics.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    Think we should oust Jeff Bezos from his own company? After all, how dare that son-of-biscuit-eater hire people for part-time jobs and not pay them enough that they can buy a Mercedes?
    Better idea: let's just not give him tax breaks to set up warehouses in places where his company absolutely has to set up warehouses to deliver what it is selling.
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  5. #55
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Liberal and conservative states alike have tried under the guidance of all sorts of politicians to pay off corporations to set up shop in their state. It doesn't work out. Those taxes they are supposed to be collecting don't show up. Because it turns out there is a reason we collect taxes on businesses like that: they eat services, use infrastructure, increase wear and tear on everything, demand more fire and police and garbage and sewer and everything else. New Jersey was extremely aggressive about paying corporations to move in. Still is. How's that bottom line looking, NJ?

    https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings

    Oddly enough, in a Liberal state like NJ, which goes Democrat in every national election, Republicans have held a lot of sway at the state and local levels. Here's a word for you to research: grift.

    "Vacant land"??!! In fucking New Jersey??!!! Have you ever been to NJ? Some of the richest farmland in the world, proximity to multiple ports and the hub of the world's finance. Why the hell should NJ be paying corporations to come to NJ? But they did. And they do. It doesn't work. It's just another aspect of the great lie, Trickle Down Economics.
    I lived in New Jersey. It's got plenty of farmland. It's one of the nation's best kept secrets. I lived in Allentown. A beautiful area where I drove by a lot of open land. Of course, that was back in the days of Governor Jim Florio, a one term wonder that really was hellbent on screwing up the state.

  6. #56
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Better idea: let's just not give him tax breaks to set up warehouses in places where his company absolutely has to set up warehouses to deliver what it is selling.
    Great idea. You tell your community to do that and then wonder why another community gets the warehouse. See that idea only works if no one is willing to give the tax incentives. Unfortunately, there are many places that are willing.

  7. #57
    SWED Missle Command Champion johnflesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The definition of "corporate welfare" is apparently whatever the person using the term wants it to mean. In splansing's case, he thinks it means any worker who, despite having a job, qualifies for some sort of government assistance, that that's corporate welfare. It means whatever the person spewing the rhetoric wants it to mean.

    But more to your point, welfare denotes need. Amazon is not doing this out of need. It's doing it because it can. It's basically creating a de facto tax bidding war among local and/or state governments. That's not out of need. It's out of a savvy ability to demand the best (most competitive/business friendly) deal. They're not being bailed out or kept alive by government disbursements intended to keep them from failing. They're just able to tell the world they're going to make a big decision and watch the world bend to their liking.

    Should companies not have as much power as Amazon has? Maybe. But it's a tough proposition to just declare we should pass laws that gut and divest the company. That's probably quite self-harming in a lot of ways to suggest being that rabidly anti-business. It tells the whole world that everywhere else is a smarter place to set up shop.



    That's right, it doesn't.
    Corporate welfare has a meaning and its the analogy applied from social welfare. It's not all doom and gloom as some would see it, but it exists although admittedly difficult to have a discussion about considering the black and white extreme applied to all businesses or no businesses.

    I appreciate the education but it doesn't change my opinion on it. If a company produces legitimate welfare recipients then it needs to fix the issue, pay for them or fire them. Having us pay for them doesn't seem like a "job" to me. Despite law, policy, guidelines, etc.
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  8. #58
    SWED Missle Command Champion johnflesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No, it means the states or municipalities desperate for Amazon to set up business there think that Amazon's presence is better than not having Amazon's presence, regardless of whether they directly tax the company a single penny or not. These governments really want people and commerce coming into their cities and think more activity (even if they don't tax it) will create spinoff benefits that will make the place better off than if Amazon went somewhere else.
    All of that can happen without producing welfare recipients. This isn't on the people, the cities or municipalities or you, me or the government - its on Amazon.

  9. #59
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnflesh View Post
    All of that can happen without producing welfare recipients.
    Read the OP, most of these that are getting welfare are part-time workers. The whole facility isn't made up of welfare recipients. It is a small number of the workers there and most of them that qualify for welfare are part-time. How many of the employees at that facility would be on welfare if the place closes tomorrow?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Liberal and conservative states alike have tried under the guidance of all sorts of politicians to pay off corporations to set up shop in their state. It doesn't work out.
    How did it work out for Seattle that Amazon and Microsoft set up so much of their business in Seattle?

    "Vacant land"??!! In fucking New Jersey??!!! Have you ever been to NJ? Some of the richest farmland in the world, proximity to multiple ports and the hub of the world's finance. Why the hell should NJ be paying corporations to come to NJ? But they did. And they do. It doesn't work. It's just another aspect of the great lie, Trickle Down Economics.
    A lot of damage has been done in places that are desperate for new business to relocate there. States are trying to reverse decades of damage done by bad policies, usually bad public sector policies, that previously led to industrial decline and exodus. It's hard to reverse this decline, but getting a few major relocations to your state can help, and these states are desperate. You really shouldn't be bringing up New Jersey in relation to this, because if you really honestly wanted to look at what has gone on over the decades in New Jersey that has put them in this fiscal situation, you wouldn't like what you found. So don't try to spin their problems to somehow be about trickle down economics in places like New Jersey, Michigan, Illinois and other places that are desperate for revival.

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