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Thread: Americans Havenít Been This Poor and Indebted in Decades

  1. #51
    Nuisance Factor Yeti 8 Jungle Swing Champion, YetiSports 4 - Albatross Overload Champion, YetiSports7 - Snowboard FreeRide Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion boontito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    Georgia offers free college paid for by the lottery, not the taxpayers. Has that been the answer to everything? Is California giving free college? New York?
    I think this is your strongest argument yet: Free college hasn't prevented Georgia from becoming a real shithole.

    Why is it that liberals think that there should be free college for all but they aren't doing it in the states that they control? Why is it that they want it to be national? Afraid of the freeloaders that would move to their state for this benefit? Don't want to pay for it? If it is such a good idea, why hasn't Massachusetts done it?
    Something tells me you're talking out your ass. Like if Massachusetts did it, you'd suddenly be behind it? I mean, if only we had a real life example of Massachusetts doing something at the state level that you crapped your pants about being done at the national level.

    ::: cough, cough ::: ACA. ::: cough :::

    I'll tell you why because the Democrats really do not want it. It's a talking point.
    Why are you so adamant about asking questions of liberals when you've already assigned the answers you want them to have?
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  2. #52
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Dad View Post
    My state, Georgia has done it. We have free college through the HOPE scholarship and HOPE grants. It is paid for by the lottery, but we have high requirements, 3.0 GPA to get it and stay in it. And my state is controlled by Republicans. My question is, if this is such a good idea, why aren't Democrat controlled states doing it in their states? Don't want to pay the taxes involved?
    Didn't someone just mention California and New York... about 3 times?

    Thx
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  3. #53
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACE View Post
    Exactly.
    Not only did that machine save us a fortune in tooling, it also made it so we could offer our customers sample products only a couple days after we get the drawings, unheard of in our industry.

    We'd have to wait a week or more just to get the tooling we had farmed out previously, and sometimes it was bad tooling as well.

    Having our own machine, I get the drawing in the morning, I have it programmed and operating by lunch, by early afternoon the finished tools are setup on a production line machine, before we go home the ladies on the line have finished proto parts to show us.

    Thx

  4. #54
    New Member Benji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    So it was illegals picking fruit and mowing lawns that depressed the wages of American workers for the last 40 years? Sure it was.
    They just deported a doctor. Donít misrepresent the situation.

  5. #55
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    You cannot stick on the jobs your father or grandfather had... They have little by little disappeared..... To have new jobs you need to develop technologies which may destroy old jobs first but will also bring new ones. For that you have to have well trained people, universities etc.... How do you think that countries without natural resources become affluent, mainly through education and the catching of new opportunities ? Which led to develop exports..... Even if mentalities in the USA were framed by considering that there was always something unlimited as far as resources are concerned and stops them to consider qualitative expansion, ow times have changed and even the USA realize that there are some limitations. But to build quality you need first people and if you look at education in many countries which have good results at the PISA tests, you discover that in most of them education is free up to universities and they are big exporters.... Although they offer good wages, a lot of social benefits etc..... You cannot ask other than for marginal things a student to pay for his education, because the first thing he has to do is study and what do bring small jobs other than pocket money and the satisfaction of being a little independant ? The solution in Scandinavian countries is to grant students loans to everyone, which will repaid little by litlte over the years and it is efficient and not very costly for the state whcih gets back is money on the long run.
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  6. #56
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thx1138 View Post
    Not only did that machine save us a fortune in tooling, it also made it so we could offer our customers sample products only a couple days after we get the drawings, unheard of in our industry.

    We'd have to wait a week or more just to get the tooling we had farmed out previously, and sometimes it was bad tooling as well.

    Having our own machine, I get the drawing in the morning, I have it programmed and operating by lunch, by early afternoon the finished tools are setup on a production line machine, before we go home the ladies on the line have finished proto parts to show us.

    Thx
    Automation is fabulous, but, the biggest problem the world has is continued population growth at the same time, humans are displacing a means for employment, with machines. If machines can do most of the work, humans become obsolete. This is an ongoing problem to solve and an interesting dilemma because population growth is contradictory to the reduction of available positions for humans......Machines still need to be programmed and repaired, but how often and by how many people, relative to the numbers of people some machines replace.

    I am ALLL for machines, but before we jump in all happy about what they can do for us and how they can reduce our costs, we need to figure in how they will affect future generations, including the children people have and say they love. Can they all be computer programmers when the technology may even lead to a reduction in the human need for programmers?

    I have had enough experience with computers over more than 45 years to know that for all the wonders they are able to produce, if I had to count up the hours of time spent trying to solve glitches, downloads, uploads, glitches, freeze ups.....it would amount to a lot.....and it causes me to wonder about full automation, when it comes to autonomous vehicles, especially where their may be millions of them.......

    I see automation as a great aid in many things, but I am wary of those who only promote the positives and brush off the negatives as something to not worry about. Yes, there has always been resistance to change and new technology, but the pace at which new technologies are coming, there is little time to learn about and come up with solutions for the downsides that may manifest themselves in ways we are not prepared to deal with......

    After all, who needs imperfect humans when perfect machines will be able to do it all, then what purpose for the machines if they are programmed to make human jobs and humanity, obsolete? The mission of humans (to create machines that will make human life unnecessary and obsolete) and the mission of machines to fulfill that "promise" will also be complete. I say this not to say we should halt all automation or to fail to recognize the amazing benefits it offers to business, medicine, defense and everyday human life....I certainly use my share and then some, of it, but it is to say, let's think about where we are going and seriously consider the downsides, not just the profit margins. It's going to take some existential thought to consider we still have a rising population, yet we have technology that is working hard and making huge advancements in things that remove humans, from the equation......not entirely, right now, but as we speak, it is working to reduce humans in the equation, not add them. Just as the world cannot be full of CEO's, I am not sure the only occupation left for humans is computer programming, especially when humans come up with computers that can program computers (that is already done) to the point there is no need for even programmers......

    Sounds kind of SCi-fi, but it is a future that will come, sooner than we think and have we properly vetted the problems and come up with solutions for them? We have a bunch of people that use the unemployment rate as a means to say they can, put people back to work. We have a current President who seems to think coal is the "future" or the solution to unemployment......If the tech industry found a means to totally automate coal mining, what need for as many coal miners? Where do they then go, to learn computer programming? Programming the future machines that can program themselves and one another?

    Ethics have been established in just about any field one can imagine. Why? Because humans have discovered that for many of the good things that they can conceive of, things come up from the very same that are negatives, not positives and they have to go back and establish ethical and in some cases, strict rules as a means of trying to prevent the downsides from harming a lot of people......

    I have no doubts there are people working on this side of technological advance, but I don't see it enough in the general conversation. I do see a lot of sell sell sell the positives.....but a lot of downplaying the real or potential negatives.......and that concerns me as I have seen a number of things people have embraced that turned out to have larger negatives, than positives....
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 23rd January 2018 at 06:18 AM.
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  7. #57
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotaFrayed View Post
    Automation is fabulous, but, the biggest problem the world has is continued population growth at the same time, humans are displacing a means for employment, with machines. If machines can do most of the work, humans become obsolete. This is an ongoing problem to solve and an interesting dilemma because population growth is contradictory to the reduction of available positions for humans......Machines still need to be programmed and repaired, but how often and by how many people, relative to the numbers of people some machines replace.

    I am ALLL for machines, but before we jump in all happy about what they can do for us and how they can reduce our costs, we need to figure in how they will affect future generations, including the children people have and say they love. Can they all be computer programmers when the technology may even lead to a reduction in the human need for programmers?

    I have had enough experience with computers over more than 45 years to know that for all the wonders they are able to produce, if I had to count up the hours of time spent trying to solve glitches, downloads, uploads, glitches, freeze ups.....it would amount to a lot.....and it causes me to wonder about full automation, when it comes to autonomous vehicles, especially where their may be millions of them.......

    I see automation as a great aid in many things, but I am wary of those who only promote the positives and brush off the negatives as something to not worry about. Yes, there has always been resistance to change and new technology, but the pace at which new technologies are coming, there is little time to learn about and come up with solutions for the downsides that may manifest themselves in ways we are not prepared to deal with......

    After all, who needs imperfect humans when perfect machines will be able to do it all, then what purpose for the machines if they are programmed to make human jobs and humanity, obsolete?
    Well, first you have to realize what a CNC machine is and does.

    Conventional mills are great at cutting in straight lines, a CNC machine is great at cutting curves, radii...



    So here it is doing something that just can't be done without elaborate conventional means...

    (Now, the machine can be rigged to run automatically with a lot of extra equipment, but we were doing short-run tooling... no sense in setting up automatic production when you have short runs of 6 or 10 parts...)

    And our machine didn't make the finished products, it made the tools that made the finished products.

    Now, you mention computers, one of the first casualties of computers and automation were clerical workers back in the 1960s...

    But, think of all the jobs in both hardware and especially software from the PC revolution... all those "apps" to start with.

    What we need is the next step, the "Personal Robot" revolution and it is coming.

    Sorry, you cannot put that genie back in the bottle... socio-economic reasons aside, it CAN'T BE DONE!

    And it is economics that make that so, one cannot afford to exclude automation, your competition will wipe you out!

    Thx
    Last edited by Thx1138; 23rd January 2018 at 01:40 PM.

  8. #58
    Human Bean KnotaFrayed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thx1138 View Post
    Well, first you have to realize what a CNC machine is and does.

    Conventional mills are great at cutting in straight lines, a CNC machine is great at cutting curves, radii...



    So here it is doing something that just can't be done without elaborate conventional means...

    (Now, the machine can be rigged to run automatically with a lot of extra equipment, but we were doing short-run tooling...)

    Now, you mention computers, one of the first casualties of computers and automation were clerical workers back in the 1960s...

    But, think of all the jobs in both hardware and especially software from the PC revolution... all those "apps" to start with.

    What we need is the next step, the "Personal Robot" revolution and it is coming.

    Sorry, you cannot put that genie back in the bottle... socio-economic reasons aside, it CAN'T BE DONE!

    And it is economics that make that so, one cannot afford to exclude automation...

    Thx
    I USE technology and automation, so contrary to what you seem to believe I said, it is not what I said.

    I would NOT be the one to put any genie back in the bottle. What I am discussing is humanity making a wish to the Genie, that machines could do everything and the Genie, makes both humanity and themselves, go away, because, what is the need for human beings, when machines can do all, or more, than humans can? What is the need for machines to do what humans want them to do if there is no need for humans, because humans have created machines that can do all they can and more?

    The genie is not the machine, but the granter of wishes humans make. It would be wonderful to laze on the beach and have i-bots deliver your pina colada and do everything for you, but what becomes your purpose in life? What becomes your purpose to machines who are serving you because you want them to do everything any human can, and more? Why the need for humans anymore?

    What happens when instead of humans employing technology, humans are the one's employed by technology.....meaning slaves to it.....

    What happens when a machine fails (no less than a human can) or just one human figures out how to use or make machine to create a computer (machine) virus that shuts all other machines down?

    Sure we have contingencies and redundancies and back ups, but machines AND humans fail. How many children today would know how to survive in the world, without a smart phone? If a machine or a human finds a way to shut them all down? How many people can read a map (an old form of technology) or use a more simplistic means of technology to find where they are and follow a route......What will they use, when the only maps that remain are digital and locked up in a chip that fails to function? This has already created a HUGE problem for search and rescue funds, because people go out into the wilderness depending on "smart technology" (instead of their brains) to "save" them, forgetting batteries have a limited life and even if they have a flash charger, it may not work, they forgot to charge it, they dropped it or it broke.

    I say no problem putting our faith in technology.....the same as we have for thousands of years, but at the same time, we need to be aware of the dangers posed, not just all the wonders of the benefit. I don't see as we are doing the same with some of our newer technology including automation. I see people like you who only want to jump in with both feet and dismiss any thought or talk of any negatives, because the cat's already out of the bag.....

    I am like you, in that I see and take advantage of technology, but I also see and think about the negatives......the same way I need to think about the positives and negatives of doing anything and weigh them before making a choice of which way to go and why.....

    Anybody here ever hear the expression "be careful of what you wish for"??? How do you imagine such an idiom came to be???
    Last edited by KnotaFrayed; 23rd January 2018 at 06:54 AM.

  9. #59
    Bizarroland Observer Thx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnotaFrayed View Post
    I USE technology and automation, so contrary to what you seem to believe I said, it is not what I said.

    I would NOT be the one to put any genie back in the bottle. What I am discussing is humanity making a wish to the Genie, that machines could do everything and the Genie, makes both humanity and themselves, go away, because, what is the need for human beings, when machines can do all, or more, than humans can.

    The genie is not the machine, but the granter of wishes humans make. It would be wonderful to laze on the beach and have i-bots deliver your pina colada and do everything for you, but what becomes your purpose in life? What becomes your purpose to machines who are serving you because you want them to do everything any human can, and more? Why the need for humans anymore?
    Well, I'm sorry, but your statements are getting a bit nonsensical here.

    Machines don't do anything but what they are set up for, and someone has to have an economic motivation to do so...

    Heck, why don't you just set up your own robot that will make and pass out free lemonade to the neighbor kids?

    There's a nice little Epson "pick-n-place" you could probably get to do the job, it's only about $6,000.

    Automation didn't just spring up of it's own accord.

    At one time, a good pin maker could produce about 20 pins a day...

    They came up with a simple machine and process that brought that up to 600 a day...

    "How ya' gonna keep 'em, back on the farm, after they've seen gay Pariee..."

    Thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babba View Post
    As the author points out, it's one reason Trump is the least popular full employment president ever.





    Americans Haven?t Been This Poor and Indebted in Decades

    This was true under Obama, too. We've been off on the wrong track for a while. Pretending there are enough good jobs to go around and simply insisting it's all caused by a bunch of lazy people is just stupid. We need to address the causes and come up with solutions to the actual reasons for this situation.
    That is a load of crap, real median household incomes and net worth are significantly higher than during Obama's tenure.

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