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Thread: Canada vows to fight back if hit with Trumpís tariffs

  1. #41
    Southern Strategy Liberal OldGaffer's Avatar
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    What amazes me is posters on PH actually believe that Trump has a fucking clue about actual economics. The guy that had to pay off 25 million from a con artist University scam.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGaffer View Post
    What amazes me is posters on PH actually believe that Trump has a fucking clue about actual economics. The guy that had to pay off 25 million from a con artist University scam.
    Yes... well what amazes me is a lot of the posters here on PH seem to actually think it's a good thing to let our steel industries go bust and Americans lose their jobs so we can appear to be neighborly.

    So whether someone believes President Trump is a whiz at economics or not (I wonder how many of us have made billions of dollars) it's apparent he understands more than a lot of others do about putting the nation's interests first.

    I don't know when it become fashionable in the democratic party to become the bitch of other nations anyway. They used to actually care about improving the lives of working Americans instead of throwing them under the bus to make other nations supposedly like us more (though to be fair quite a few democrats are supporting these tariffs so I am excluding those).
    Last edited by Jeremy; 4th March 2018 at 10:10 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    No, what's actually emotional is thinking another country has the right to tell other countries what their trade policies should be. Because they don't.

    And it is arrogant for another country to try and tell others countries what their trade policies should be.

    So you're the one who is ignoring things here. The U.S. has a right to set its own trade policies. And that comment wasn't even a reply to something you had expressed - so you aren't making much sense.
    Actually it is the USA which are manipulating tariffs anyway.... You may well consider it is their business, but there are some WTO rules which are also for the USA and the risk is to loose in front of the courts which happened before at the time of president Bush in a similar matter.So your attitude remains emotional because you cannot accept that the US cannot get away from existing treaties without first giving the necessary notice to do so.
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  4. #44
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Actually it is the USA which are manipulating tariffs anyway.... You may well consider it is their business, but there are some WTO rules which are also for the USA and the risk is to loose in front of the courts which happened before at the time of president Bush in a similar matter.So your attitude remains emotional because you cannot accept that the US cannot get away from existing treaties without first giving the necessary notice to do so.
    Hang on... China had 15% corporate tax, US had 25%. Trump equalized it.

    China retaliated by giving 0% tax if they allow Chinese control over the companies.

    Then trump did this to offset China's move.

    There will be implications, no doubt. This is bigger than just trump though.

  5. #45
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Yes... well what amazes me is a lot of the posters here on PH seem to actually think it's a good thing to let our steel industries go bust and Americans lose their jobs so we can appear to be neighborly.

    So whether someone believes President Trump is a whiz at economics or not (I wonder how many of us have made billions of dollars) it's apparent he understands more than a lot of others do about putting the nation's interest first.

    I don't know when it become fashionable in the democratic to become the bitch of other nations. They used to actually care about improving the lives of working Americans instead of throwing them under the bus to make other nations supposedly like us more.
    The argument is that the tarriffs on steel with help shore up jobs of what 145,000 people but it will likely will upwards of 800,000 lost jobs in other sectors. I don't know about you but the math doesn't look favorable to me.

    Anyway this was tried by George W Bush in 2002 on a narrower bases and it didn't work and after 20 odd months, it proved a disaster. I suppose as this will have a broader base so the effects of it will be seen sooner rather than later. It really pays to know ones economic history. I don't think Trump does however which makes me wonder what the hell he did study because it sure as hell wasn't the economics i know.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    Actually it is the USA which are manipulating tariffs anyway.... You may well consider it is their business, but there are some WTO rules which are also for the USA and the risk is to loose in front of the courts which happened before at the time of president Bush in a similar matter.So your attitude remains emotional because you cannot accept that the US cannot get away from existing treaties without first giving the necessary notice to do so.
    No you're the with the emotional attitude or what ever because it is not against the rules to put tariffs on steel. Obama did the same thing.... you are just being emotional in your attidue because you don't like Trump or something.

    Do you know how many tariffs are currently levied against the United States? You may want to go look into that... but I'll give you a hint (it's a lot).
    Last edited by Jeremy; 4th March 2018 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    The argument is that the tarriffs on steel with help shore up jobs of what 145,000 people but it will likely will upwards of 800,000 lost jobs in other sectors. I don't know about you but the math doesn't look favorable to me.

    Anyway this was tried by George W Bush in 2002 on a narrower bases and it didn't work and after 20 odd months, it proved a disaster. I suppose as this will have a broader base so the effects of it will be seen sooner rather than later. It really pays to know ones economic history. I don't think Trump does however which makes me wonder what the hell he did study because it sure as hell wasn't the economics i know.
    What lost jobs in other sectors?

  8. #48
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    What lost jobs in other sectors?
    Higher prices in raw material will increase the final price of goods made with the steel and aluminun in the USA. An example very simply is cars made in the US. Prices will increase on each and every car made in the USA and not just on American owned car companies AKA the big three but also HONDA, TOYOTA, MAZDA. Companies are in existance to make as much money as they can so bottom line the industries will be looking at the profitabily of the plants in comparison to other parts of the world and start laying off people in the USA to increase output in plants in other parts of the world. It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Now that's only one industry because obviously the cost of steel and aluminium is rather obvious in cars but there are other of smaller items relying on steel and aluminum as well but the philopshy is the same non the less. The idea of tarrifs worked when industries were not internationally based but not so much since the 1970's.

    Now the above facts plus the fact that Trump has unintentially removed any penalty in moving capital around the world by allowing foreign earnings coming back into the USA without penalty means there are no penalties going the other way either. All those tax breaks makes it easier for companies to absorb the one time cost of shifting manufacturing lines from one country to the next and have basically undone any good that may have been realized with the coporate tax breaks and have made the one time bonuses to workers and the temp tax break on individuals a joke.

    Economics is like playing Jegna. You can't fuck with one piece without realizing how that is going to affect the other pieces.

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/sW0OAMY6CT8
    Last edited by Eve1; 4th March 2018 at 10:47 AM.
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  9. #49
    Veteran Member Southern Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    Higher prices in raw material will increase the final price of goods made with the steel and aluminun in the USA. An example very simply is cars made in the US. Prices will increase on each and every car made in the USA and not just on American owned car companies AKA the big three but also HONDA, TOYOTA, MAZDA. Companies are in existance to make as much money as they can so bottom line the industries will be looking at the profitabily of the plants in comparison to other parts of the world and start laying off people in the USA to increase output in plants in other parts of the world. It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Now that's only one industry because obviously the cost of steel and aluminium is rather obvious in cars but there are other of smaller items relying on steel and aluminum as well but the philopshy is the same non the less. The idea of tarrifs worked when industries were not internationally based but not so much since the 1970's.

    Now the above facts plus the fact that Trump has unintentially removed any penalty in moving capital around the world by allowing foreign earnings coming back into the USA without penalty means there are no penalties going the other way either. All those tax breaks makes it easier for companies to absorb the one time cost of shifting manufacturing lines from one country to the next and have basically undone any good that may have been realized with the coporate tax breaks and have made the one time bonuses to workers and the temp tax break on individuals a joke.
    What if that increase is negligible? Maybe less than a dime on a case of beer, or $40 on a car. Would that mean that we should continue to let other countries dump steel until American steel companies are all closed?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    We have been using tariffs since our country was founded. What actually caused the catastrophy was NAFTA and the china trade agreements which desecrated our manufacturing sector and nearly wiped out the middle class in this country.

    It's also not the goal of an administration to make us more competitive... or at least it shouldn't be. It is to improve the quality of life for Americans. Yes - we could turn our country into a giant sweat shop fueled by cheap laborers churning out cheap products and out compete everyone on the planet (empires built on the back of slaves for example were very competitive) but is that really the kind of society we want for ourselves?
    My country Switzerland is not a sweat shop and meanwhile exports a lot like most countries of Northern Europe even if we have high wages etc.... For that you need skilled manpower and to get it you need good educational facilities and a lot of investment in R&D. Why couldn't the US do the same and offer more sophisticated products worldwide ? In the US you lack skilled manpower even if you have high tech. And you will never improve the life of average American if you do offer them better training.I am member of the board of a company specialised in dentistry and sophisticated prosthetics. We sell worldwide, but the US are a bad market for us. The reason can be found considering that because there is no professional schools for dental technicians there at the difference of Canada or Japan which are godo markets, because you find trained people there. You cannot solve such structural problems by jsut increasingcustoms duties not to speak about the backlash it will provoke. Do not forget that the EU is the principal trading power in the world and has also somepossibilities to retaliate to such unilateral moves.
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