Thread: Canada vows to fight back if hit with Trump’s tariffs

Originally Posted by Eve1

Higher prices in raw material will increase the final price of goods made with the steel and aluminun in the USA. An example very simply is cars made in the US. Prices will increase on each and every car made in the USA and not just on American owned car companies AKA the big three but also HONDA, TOYOTA, MAZDA. Companies are in existance to make as much money as they can so bottom line the industries will be looking at the profitabily of the plants in comparison to other parts of the world and start laying off people in the USA to increase output in plants in other parts of the world. It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Now that's only one industry because obviously the cost of steel and aluminium is rather obvious in cars but there are other of smaller items relying on steel and aluminum as well but the philopshy is the same non the less. The idea of tarrifs worked when industries were not internationally based but not so much since the 1970's.

Now the above facts plus the fact that Trump has unintentially removed any penalty in moving capital around the world by allowing foreign earnings coming back into the USA without penalty means there are no penalties going the other way either. All those tax breaks makes it easier for companies to absorb the one time cost of shifting manufacturing lines from one country to the next and have basically undone any good that may have been realized with the coporate tax breaks and have made the one time bonuses to workers and the temp tax break on individuals a joke.

Get back to me when you have an actual example of Americans losing their jobs due to these tariffs. Because all I see here is theorizing.

The United States is by far the largest trading partner of Canada. For them to start a trade war over steel tariffs would be insanely stupid for them to do as they would stand to lose way more than they would gain. But that is for them to decide.

I would prefer that NAFTA were abolished and we entered a singular trade agreement with Canada. Then we could deal with one another's concerns in a more direct and effective way.

Originally Posted by galatin

My country Switzerland is not a sweat shop and meanwhile exports a lot like most countries of Northern Europe even if we have high wages etc.... For that you need skilled manpower and to get it you need good educational facilities and a lot of investment in R&D. Why couldn't the US do the same and offer more sophisticated products worldwide ? In the US you lack skilled manpower even if you have high tech. And you will never improve the life of average American if you do offer them better training.I am member of the board of a company specialised in dentistry and sophisticated prosthetics. We sell worldwide, but the US are a bad market for us. The reason can be found considering that because there is no professional schools for dental technicians there at the difference of Canada or Japan which are godo markets, because you find trained people there. You cannot solve such structural problems by jsut increasingcustoms duties not to speak about the backlash it will provoke. Do not forget that the EU is the principal trading power in the world and has also somepossibilities to retaliate to such unilateral moves.

I didn't say your country was a sweat shop - and these steel tariffs have nothing to do with America having a lack of skilled manpower.

That's really my only response to this.

Originally Posted by Southern Dad

What if that increase is negligible? Maybe less than a dime on a case of beer, or $40 on a car. Would that mean that we should continue to let other countries dump steel until American steel companies are all closed?

I don't know what price per unit difference will a company decide that doing business in the USA is something that is not as profitable than somewhere else? Oh and actually at today's prices the average cost of mfg a car would increase $175 per unit. If calculated over the number of cars produced that's $3 Billion dollars. Not chump change.

Each company will have to decide what majic number would cause them to move their operations based on their own business model. Mexico and China and Korea and India are the newly emerging markets as is Africa. The Labor cost is already cheaper in those countries. Consumer goods per capita are more in demand in those countries as their middle class is growing and the USAs' is shrinking (another unforeseen consequence of letting the 1% get fatter and not spreading it out more in the USA).

You add in the fact that the raw material in those countries listed above will be cheaper as Russia and Europe and even Canada can supply steel to them without penalty. Like someone on PH pointed out in this thread you can't tell another country to impose tarriffs if they don't want to on other countries. Mexico is allowed to sell its steel to India without India imposing tariffs on them and so is Canada or any other country they chose to trade with. If you are trying to sell steal just to American companies then you of course can put tariffs on raw materials but don't expect those companies to stay in the USA when adding in everything else. Add in reducing labour costs and the reduction of actual good distribution to its final market destination and it becomes very attractive for companies already in the USA to shut down in the USA and move to other countries.

The tax bill Trump already made law makes it easier for companies to shift jobs overseas. The bill stops taxation on US companies’ routine foreign earnings, but it did not put in sufficient guardrails to prevent jobs from moving overseas. You can't say that this was not pointed out back while it wa being debated but it was a point thrown aside as not even the GOP expected Trump was going to implement tarriffs after all his own economic advisor was dead set against it. The price the USA is going to pay for having a President that you really can't predict given he has no firm grasp on how all this comes together. He is not a real cause and effect guy as is evidenced by the stupidest political move in history of firing Comey.

https://qz.com/1144201/under-trump-u...r-than-before/

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Really? This is your argument... we shouldn't place tariffs on steel because it isn't neighborly?

I think protecting American jobs (something the President promised to do) is more important than bending over and taking it from other countries in some half-ass attempt to be neighborly or make them like us.

So I guess my response to your OP would be that the President has his priorities in order - your OP doesn't.

The democratic party would be wise to get on the right side of this issue. Sanders almost defeated Mrs. Clinton because of this issue - and if corporate power and influence inside the democratic party continues to corrupt their politicians against working Americans the defeats this party have suffered lately will just be the beginning.

Yup! Thats because I'm a nice guy, err well I try to be

Originally Posted by Tedminator

Yup! Thats because I'm a nice guy, err well I try to be

Well I imagine those steel workers who stand to lose their jobs because of all this dumping and predatory pricing don't consider that very neighborly either Tedminator.

A president should put the needs of his people first. It shouldn't be to make nice with other countries at our own expense. We should participate in the global economy and trade only to the point that it benefits us to do so.

Originally Posted by Eve1

I thought his dad and he and his brothers were all black belts?

Not sure ... but JT can box.

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Well I imagine those steel workers who stand to lose their jobs because of all this dumping and predatory pricing don't consider that very neighborly either Tedminator.

A president should put the needs of his people first. It shouldn't be to make nice with other countries at our own expense. We should participate in the global economy and trade only to the point that it benefits us to do so.

A good way to help those steel workers would be to give them a voucher for a uhaul and retrain them in a growing industry. As Eve already explained..

Originally Posted by Eve1

The argument is that the tarriffs on steel with help shore up jobs of what 145,000 people but it will likely will upwards of 800,000 lost jobs in other sectors. I don't know about you but the math doesn't look favorable to me.

Anyway this was tried by George W Bush in 2002 on a narrower bases and it didn't work and after 20 odd months, it proved a disaster. I suppose as this will have a broader base so the effects of it will be seen sooner rather than later. It really pays to know ones economic history. I don't think Trump does however which makes me wonder what the hell he did study because it sure as hell wasn't the economics i know.

Originally Posted by Tedminator

A good way to help those steel workers would be to give them a voucher of a uhaul and retrain them in a growing industry. As Eve already explained..

I don't care how many times you re-train these steel workers - that's not going to confront the problem here which is the dumping of large quantities of steel at predatory prices into our country.

So you can train them till the cows come home - that isn't going to make any difference. They will just be highly trained steel workers who are still out of a job.

Originally Posted by Jeremy

No you're the with the emotional attitude or what ever because it is not against the rules to put tariffs on steel. Obama did the same thing.... you are just being emotional in your attidue because you don't like Trump or something.

Do you know how many tariffs are currently levied against the United States? You may want to go look into that... but I'll give you a hint (it's a lot).

Actually the US are treated like any other country because of the rules of WTO. So what you mention is the common fate of most other exporting countries within the WTO. My concern is more on the quality of American industrial products which compete often with cheap exports coming from Asia. If the quality was better, it would be possible to export more . Again it has Nothing to do with hightech productswhere the USA are often excellent. Why do you think that American cars are not much exported to Europe ? It is a problem of quality and not the consequence of high custom duties which are actually rather low.