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Thread: Ronald Reagan's Pie Fight Analogy For A Trade War

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Basic income could be linked to inflation.
    Creating more inflation...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Creating more inflation...
    Yeah, we only worry about inflation when the average guy begins to get ahead, or as in recent history, not fall behind.

    Interesting that one doesnt hear much about increasing income inequality being inflationary.

  3. #13
    Veteran Member carpe diem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Basic income could be linked to inflation.

    The government can become the employer of last resort.
    Wow...you must be creaming your pants over this...Liberal Nirvana

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Yeah, we only worry about inflation when the average guy begins to get ahead, or as in recent history, not fall behind.
    You're not getting it. When one average guy gets $20,000 more per year, he "gets ahead." When everyone gets $20,000 more per year, they don't "get ahead," because "getting ahead" is relative to one another. Significantly more dollars are going to be immediately competing for not-significantly-more goods and services. Prices can and will rise almost immediately, which doesn't necessarily make everyone dramatically worse off, it just doesn't necessarily make them that much better off. It's like playing a game of monopoly and most of the way through the game changing the rules such that every player gets $200 every time they roll the dice, instead of every time they pass go. Try doing that, and let me know if the game goes on forever with equality.

    I'm not saying a universal basic income would have zero ostensibly positive consequences, it just isn't a magic bullet.

    Interesting that one doesnt hear much about increasing income inequality being inflationary.
    Actually, it isn't. Inflation has been low in recent times of rapidly rising income inequality.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 26th March 2018 at 10:46 AM.

  5. #15
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You're not getting it. When one average guy gets $20,000 more per year, he "gets ahead." When everyone gets $20,000 more per year, they don't "get ahead," because "getting ahead" is relative to one another. Significantly more dollars are going to be immediately competing for not-significantly-more goods and services. Prices can and will rise almost immediately, which doesn't necessarily make everyone dramatically worse off, it just doesn't necessarily make them that much better off. It's like playing a game of monopoly and most of the way through the game changing the rules such that every player gets $200 every time they roll the dice, instead of every time they pass go. Try doing that, and let me know if the game goes on forever with equality.

    I'm not saying a universal basic income would have zero ostensibly positive consequences, it just isn't a magic bullet.



    Actually, it isn't. Inflation has been low in recent times of rapidly rising income inequality.
    If anything, I would expect an era of "rapidly rising income inequality" to be strongly deflationary, as it would mean the larger mass of people have less money to purchase consumer goods. Two eras of rising income inequality were the late 1800's, which was a deflationary period; and the late 1920's, which led to the VERY deflationary Great Depression.

    Danger, Will Robinson! DANGER!!

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    We are probably going to need to think about other things than just a universal basic income, and personally I actually tend to despise defined benefit types of social programs, because they are so non-targeted toward those who actually would benefit most from the economic assistance. Public pension benefits are the most regressive type of program in existence, predominantly benefiting already well-off retirees at an absolutely bewildering cost to a new generation of Americans that by and large won't ever receive pensions. That is psychopathic.

    Progressive consumption taxes, especially toward luxury consumption, and progressive property taxes would be interesting. A guaranteed basic disbursement for health care goods and services in conjunction with higher deductible health insurance plans and HSAs could do some good things for health care in this country. We seem so desperate to "create jobs" for people to do so that they can be okay economically, yet most of our taxes are against the performance of a job and the earning of an income.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    We are probably going to need to think about other things than just a universal basic income, and personally I actually tend to despise defined benefit types of social programs, because they are so non-targeted toward those who actually would benefit most from the economic assistance. Public pension benefits are the most regressive type of program in existence, predominantly benefiting already well-off retirees at an absolutely bewildering cost to a new generation of Americans that by and large won't ever receive pensions. That is psychopathic.

    Progressive consumption taxes, especially toward luxury consumption, and progressive property taxes would be interesting. A guaranteed basic disbursement for health care goods and services in conjunction with higher deductible health insurance plans and HSAs could do some good things for health care in this country. We seem so desperate to "create jobs" for people to do so that they can be okay economically, yet most of our taxes are against the performance of a job and the earning of an income.
    YOu make some good points. Perhaps basic income can be split into basic needs, separate categories so that each can be tackled separately. For instance, housing, health care, education, secondary education, heating, water, etc. can all be considered as "basic income" for the purposes of evaluating subsidization by taxation. Perhaps the solution is not to give a check but to give a service, let the individual find work for the incidentals. Its an idea worth considering.

  8. #18
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    We are probably going to need to think about other things than just a universal basic income, and personally I actually tend to despise defined benefit types of social programs, because they are so non-targeted toward those who actually would benefit most from the economic assistance. Public pension benefits are the most regressive type of program in existence, predominantly benefiting already well-off retirees at an absolutely bewildering cost to a new generation of Americans that by and large won't ever receive pensions. That is psychopathic.

    Progressive consumption taxes, especially toward luxury consumption, and progressive property taxes would be interesting. A guaranteed basic disbursement for health care goods and services in conjunction with higher deductible health insurance plans and HSAs could do some good things for health care in this country. We seem so desperate to "create jobs" for people to do so that they can be okay economically, yet most of our taxes are against the performance of a job and the earning of an income.
    I very much like the idea of progressive consumption taxes, and have been arguing along those lines for a few decades now.

  9. #19
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    I very much like the idea of progressive consumption taxes, and have been arguing along those lines for a few decades now.
    A major reason I like this idea is that it would increase the incentive to save and discourage spending on frivolities, in particular. A low saving rate is a very serious problem for America. We have OODLES of people in their fifties who have saved NOTHING for their own retirement. They are expecting to finance their entire retirement from Social Security, apparently. We NEED to encourage and incentivize a much higher rate of saving. NOW is the time to do it, when the economy is fairly humming along.

    Alas, we are going in precisely the opposite direction. We are looking, more and more, to be on a 2000's-style spending binge.

    You remember how THAT turned out, right?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    A major reason I like this idea is that it would increase the incentive to save and discourage spending on frivolities, in particular. A low saving rate is a very serious problem for America. We have OODLES of people in their fifties who have saved NOTHING for their own retirement. They are expecting to finance their entire retirement from Social Security, apparently. We NEED to encourage and incentivize a much higher rate of saving. NOW is the time to do it, when the economy is fairly humming along.

    Alas, we are going in precisely the opposite direction. We are looking, more and more, to be on a 2000's-style spending binge.

    You remember how THAT turned out, right?
    I've read support online for progressive consumption taxes from both ends of the spectrum. But the partisan foot soldiers haven't worked it into their vocabulary yet, so they're still clamoring for 70-90% upper income tax brackets.

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