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Thread: Why Keynesian Stimulus Fails

  1. #61
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    Senior Member Zaragunudgeyon's Avatar
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    There must have been a good reason as to why the high forehead men running everything imposed it. Are they sadists? If not then what?

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    Emperor of Earth muffins's Avatar
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    Funny how people think that government = economy.

    Maybe we should get the big car manufacturers to take out a mountain of debt and pay people to dig random holes in the countryside. That'll make the economy grow, right? Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaragunudgeyon View Post
    There must have been a good reason as to why the high forehead men running everything imposed it. Are they sadists? If not then what?
    It's the same thing in the UK as it is in the US: some right wingers put more belief in their ideology than in the real world results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Funny how people think that government = economy.

    Maybe we should get the big car manufacturers to take out a mountain of debt and pay people to dig random holes in the countryside. That'll make the economy grow, right? Right?
    Here's an example of ideology over reality.

    He goes to the ridiculous to try to make a nonsensical point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    Here's an example of ideology over reality.

    He goes to the ridiculous to try to make a nonsensical point.
    Why is it ridiculous? It is, after all, what Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists are demanding that governments actually do. Pile up a ton of debt and spend the money on activities that would not be supported by the voluntary transactions of people in the free market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Why is it ridiculous? It is, after all, what Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists are demanding that governments actually do. Pile up a ton of debt and spend the money on activities that would not be supported by the voluntary transactions of people in the free market.
    Naming all three as if they are similar.

    Ridiculous.

    The free market is not in the business of governing, and companies do not have their own currencies. So, again, the ideology is failing you because you can't seperate the fact ffrom the ridiculous fiction you believe in.

    If you want to compare the free markets to a nation, try Greece, Ireland or other EU nations that do not have their own currencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    Naming all three as if they are similar.
    Four. And yes, they are all similar and have similar goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    Ridiculous.
    And yet you fail to explain why a company engaging in the exact same economic activity that Keynesians want governments to engage in (ie - taking on huge debt and spending the money on stuff that the economy will not support via normal, voluntary economic transactions) is ridiculous. If it's ridiculous for companies to engage in this sort of activity, then it is also ridiculous for governments to do so to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    The free market is not in the business of governing,
    Yes, the free market is in the business of enabling people's economic transactions and trade ... not governing. And vice versa, government should be in the business of governing, not interfering with and distorting the economy.

    But then, that's exactly what Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists want government to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    and companies do not have their own currencies.
    Maybe they should. I'd love to pay my taxes in McDonald Dollars or Wendy Buxs. It would blow open the currency scam for everyone to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    If you want to compare the free markets to a nation, try Greece, Ireland or other EU nations that do not have their own currencies.
    They have their own currency. It's called the Euro. Their governments switched to the Euro. Their governments bloated up on cheap debt while interest rates were low. Their governments engaged in a gluttonous spending spree that could not possibly be supported by tax revenues. Their governments encouraged property bubbles to form. Their governments went bust, and their economies imploded, because of their own irresponsible actions.

    ... and the Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists solution is to borrow/print/spend more, more, MORE, MORE!!
    Last edited by muffins; 10th December 2012 at 02:08 AM. Reason: potatoes

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    Join, or Die nonsqtr's Avatar
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    Shanty's one of those "bleeding heart" liberatls. The whole deal with those guys is they don't understand pain. Can't fathom it, can't stomach it. Don't "grok" it. Don't like it. Don't understand what it's good for.

    So we get stuff like this:

    "Austerity causes pain". Well, double fucking duh, right? That's kind of what it's intended to do. That's why it's there in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanty View Post
    It's the same thing in the UK as it is in the US: some right wingers put more belief in their ideology than in the real world results.
    And obviously there's a bigger picture, which escapes tiny little brainwashed minds. It's no good blaming the failures on someone else's model, that simply won't do. That's a bozo no-no in the world of scientific modeling. The metric for the influence of ideology is the degree to which arguments are made in support of contrary results.

    Reality is: government growth generates a positive feedback cycle within the economy. When government grows, it subsumes a larger fraction of the private economy, which in turn requires more tax money to support, meaning government needs to grow even larger. This cycle breeds dependency. Therefore, if we use the supposedly "painless" method and pile on the temporary debt to get "over the hump", we end up like Japan which has to manage a 200% debt to GDP ratio and is therefore economically dependent on its creditors.

    And, my "ideology" prefers the concept of independence to that of dependence. (That's because I've had first hand experience with most forms of "dependence" and few of them are pleasant). And the larger picture also includes the concept that debt uncouples voters from their financial choices, and makes it easy for politicians to hide the financial pain in a cloud of loose bookkeeping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Four. And yes, they are all similar and have similar goals.
    Four is correct. And no they don't have much in common with each other.



    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    And yet you fail to explain why a company engaging in the exact same economic activity that Keynesians want governments to engage in (ie - taking on huge debt and spending the money on stuff that the economy will not support via normal, voluntary economic transactions) is ridiculous. If it's ridiculous for companies to engage in this sort of activity, then it is also ridiculous for governments to do so to.
    I already addressed this. Companies are not governments. But, companies do borrow money (debt) at times to expand production or invest in new ventures.



    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Yes, the free market is in the business of enabling people's economic transactions and trade ... not governing. And vice versa, government should be in the business of governing, not interfering with and distorting the economy.
    No government, no free markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    But then, that's exactly what Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists want government to do.
    4 different groups with different goals in different realms. Just pointing out your FAIL.



    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Maybe they should. I'd love to pay my taxes in McDonald Dollars or Wendy Buxs. It would blow open the currency scam for everyone to see.
    Go ahead, but McDonalds is not a government. And bitcoin isn't recognized on FOREX, either.



    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    They have their own currency. It's called the Euro. Their governments switched to the Euro.
    If memory serves, you're from the UK, so you must know that many countries use the Euro while not having fiscal unity. LOL!


    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Their governments bloated up on cheap debt while interest rates were low. Their governments engaged in a gluttonous spending spree that could not possibly be supported by tax revenues.
    LOL! You don't even know the story of what's happening in a Continent just across the Channel. Spain and Ireland had balanced budgets to the point of surpluses in the years leading up to the world wide financial crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    Their governments encouraged property bubbles to form. Their governments went bust, and their economies imploded, because of their own irresponsible actions.
    Italy never had it. Their banks were regulated more severely, and they are still in a similar boat to Ireland, Greece, Spain...

    What happened was that there was a lot of inflation in property booms in Spain, Ireland and Greece. Then the financial implosion happened world wide, and relative to other nations on the euro, the peripheral countries couldn't devalue their currency to Germany and France's currency, because they were on the same currency. Assymetric shocks, and all of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by muffins View Post
    ... and the Keynesians/Socialists/Statists/Leftists solution is to borrow/print/spend more, more, MORE, MORE!!
    And you end it with the ridiculous of lumping disparate groups in as the same. Should we lump Tories, Republicans, Fascists, Austrian Schoolers and supply-sidersin the same groups and just accept them as the same? No. It would be a retarded as what you're doing.

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