Thread: What Scotland learned from free college

Originally Posted by Rasselas

A couple of things: 1. There's nothing wrong with going into debt for an advantage that will increase your earnings over your entire lifetime. Current studies show that any undergraduate degree will do this.

2. In California, at least, the Pell Grant is the same as basic tuition at a Cal State. For qualifying students, tuition is essentially free because of that fact. This is true despite the fact that California has followed the lead of other states in defunding public higher education in favor of more prison spending. Other states could do the same.

Personally, I've never favored completely free college. The major difference between higher ed and K-12 education in the US is the level of risk for the students. Most people need to have skin in a game before they take it seriously...whcih leads me to point three:

3. In the UK, students at the secondary level already endure serious risk as they move through the upper forms because they have to take GCE qualifying exams for university. That is, if they don't pass what used to be called "A-level" exams in their chosen subject area, they can't get into a higher ed program in that field. Most college-bound Brits take multiple GSCE exams (or the equivalent in Scotland) so they have to earn their way into university--that's the gate keeper rather than money.

Well said...skin in game makes it more meaningful.

Originally Posted by NightSwimmer

The problem with our current grant system is that it is only available to the dirt poor. Children from working class families who aren't poor, but can't afford to provide a college education to their kids are just shit out of luck. Interest free student loans used to be available to those folks, but interest rates on student loans now that they have been privatized amount to usury.

Yep...most middle class families do not get one dime toward their kids education. Tennessee has a nice program, called the Hope Scholarship. This is not a income sensitive program, it is based on grades. My brilliant niece is attending college on a Hope scholarship and is in pre-med currently. She worked her butt off to get that scholarship and was rewarded with 100% free tuition. We need to reward those families as well. I agree with interest free...simply because, their potential earnings in the future will pay that back ten fold. Same with the Pell grant.

Originally Posted by StanStill

I agree, but that's far different than saying that we shouldn't let kids study philosophy because there are no philosophy jobs. Philosophy majors also become lawyers and entrepreneurs. It's saying that there should be public funded education in whatever field one wants to study.

If people can pursue their study to the point of expertise, I think we all benefit immensely. Even if that means the ones that want to study art (ahem) get to do so for free.

Some "artist" designs just about everything around us.

Originally Posted by Eve1

While a well rounded education is wonderful unless you were born into money and can count on your Trust fund to support you in the life your parents had made you accustomed I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT GOAL IS TO PREPARE STUDENTS TO WORK and be productive and support themselves. Making as much money as they can in hopefully a job they like or at least don't hate (at least don't hate to the point it makes you miserable). I say you wanna love your job if you can but you must make a living at it or keep what you love to do as a hobby. Then when you retire you can do your hobby full time.

My daughter took your advice, and hates what she's doing.

I disagree and agree if that is possible with going to school for school sake. If you expect to finish college with a degree in philosophy you will find yourself working at something like Star Bucks serving customers. That's great if you support yourself at it and you like it. If you want to make more money it requires you to take either a skilled trade program or graudate program. Now we are talking about not 3 or 4 years but 5 to 11 years in total after high school to get a job as a professional making decent money. (you would be what 25-26 yrs old).

Originally Posted by labrea

My daughter took your advice, and hates what she's doing.

I did say find a job that you like or at least a job you don't hate. I tell kids all the time your lucky if you find a job you love but reality is most of us did or are doing jobs that we can just tolerate.....love is a luxury for most.

Originally Posted by Eve1

I disagree and agree if that is possible with going to school for school sake. If you expect to finish college with a degree in philosophy you will find yourself working at something like Star Bucks serving customers.

That's just not true. A philosophy degree doesn't deliver you to the door of your first job they way an accounting degree does, but it gives you exactly the sorts of skills that employers are looking for: superior reading, writing, and presentation skills. It's harder for liberal arts degree holders to get started in a career but those degrees frequently allow them to advance faster.

That's great if you support yourself at it and you like it. If you want to make more money it requires you to take either a skilled trade program or graudate program. Now we are talking about not 3 or 4 years but 5 to 11 years in total after high school to get a job as a professional making decent money. (you would be what 25-26 yrs old).

It doesn't make sense to look at only the first ten years of someone's life out of school when they are actually going to be working for 40 years.

Originally Posted by Macduff

Not if taxpayers are funding it. If the public is paying, then they deserve a return on their investment. If someone wants to get a degree in something stupid like gender studies or 18th century literature, let them do it on their own dime.

By their mid-50s, liberal arts majors with an advanced or undergraduate degree are on average making more money those who studied in professional and pre-professional fields, and are employed at similar rates. But that’s just one part of the paper’s overall argument that concerns about the value of a liberal arts degree “are unfounded and should be put to rest.”

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...long-term-data

Originally Posted by Rasselas

That's just not true. A philosophy degree doesn't deliver you to the door of your first job they way an accounting degree does, but it gives you exactly the sorts of skills that employers are looking for: superior reading, writing, and presentation skills. It's harder for liberal arts degree holders to get started in a career but those degrees frequently allow them to advance faster.

It doesn't make sense to look at only the first ten years of someone's life out of school when they are actually going to be working for 40 years.

Don't get me wrong, I have a Liberal Arts degree but I also got one when it was actually looked at as an accomplishment. Now employer's
don't even bat an eye if you have a Master's degree. In my younger days (especially for a women) high school was the end of the line. Now it's like well of course you have a 4 year degree but so does everybody else,so what? Trust me over the last 30 years business has changed and unless you are a professional (MD LAWYER PHD C.A, PENG) you wont get anywhere in terms of earning power. Either that or learn a trade (mechanic, electrician, plumber, master carpenter, medical technician) to make a good living..

Originally Posted by NeoVsMatrix

By their mid-50s, liberal arts majors with an advanced or undergraduate degree are on average making more money those who studied in professional and pre-professional fields, and are employed at similar rates. But that’s just one part of the paper’s overall argument that concerns about the value of a liberal arts degree “are unfounded and should be put to rest.”

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...long-term-data

Yes that would me my generation and yes we started when a BA or BSC meant something. Now it's shall we say, it's the equivalent to having a high school diploma back then.