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Thread: Broad support for charter schools

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    I could never find it but it's worth repeating.
    I taught in inner-city Brooklyn and the school was failing badly. The chancellor did an experiment and he let Divide. Our three-story building into three separate mini. schools. The kids applied to the school they wanted. One had a business theme to it, one was called the Academy, and ours was the school for social action called EnRich. So now instead of 900 kids in one school we had 300 in each school...and the best part was we had about 20 kids in a class. We knew every single kid and it was like the best private school. What I found the most fun was when we looked at the kids who were applying one teacher might say "he's a Terror" and inevitably one would say, .oh, I love that kid" custodians had to kick the teachers out becuase we stayed so late. The kids soared academically..... We still had one principal for the whole building. It was a huge success what do you think happened? They stopped funding the program
    Diane Ravich (I think) suggests that the consolidation of high schools into very large, comprehensive schools was one of the worst decisions Americans have made about their schools.

  2. #52
    Veteran Member Isalexi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Diane Ravich (I think) suggests that the consolidation of high schools into very large, comprehensive schools was one of the worst decisions Americans have made about their schools.
    Kids get lost in very large schools. They fall through the cracks. My daughter is a counselor in a high school and has a program that I think is fantastic. It is called avid and it is for students who score well on tests but are Doing poorly in school. They get special attention, they commit to the program and sign an agreement and get all kinds of help. My daughter beams when she hears kids who were flunking out of school say to her, "I want to go to summer school because I want to get on the honor roll."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isalexi View Post
    Kids get lost in very large schools. They fall through the cracks. My daughter is a counselor in a high school and has a program that I think is fantastic. It is called avid and it is for students who score well on tests but are Doing poorly in school. They get special attention, they commit to the program and sign an agreement and get all kinds of help. My daughter beams when she hears kids who were flunking out of school say to her, "I want to go to summer school because I want to get on the honor roll."
    Lots of my students work with AVID kids.

  4. #54
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    @Kontrary, take a look at this: For-profit charter schools are failing and fading. Here?s why. Making a profit while providing public school students with decent education turns out to be quite difficult. Most efforts in that area have failed or are failing. It would be monumentally stupid for a successful company in another business area to suddenly decide to jump into running schools. Many others have failed. It's simply not a workable business model.
    Edison restructured, they found a NEW way to do it...from your link

    Michael Serpe is the director of communications for EdisonLearning—the new name for Edison Schools. He says school management is no longer its focus. (It’s now shifting toward online curricula and providing specific services to schools instead of full management.) He says opening schools across multiple states ruined Edison’s intended business model, which was predicated on the economies of scale that only multistate operations could bring.

    “The original concept was that we could be efficient by sheer volume,” Serpe says. Edison planned to centralize the operations side, including payroll and some parts of hiring.

    That never materialized. Efficiency, Serpe says, was “completely undercut” by local variances. Edison had to hire dozens of people simply to ensure they complied with the sometimes wildly different regulations.

    We were working in schools across so many states that the economy of scale was just never built,” he says.



    The way they tried to structure is what caused a problem because they had to hire too many people, it wasnt that schools are profitable, his business model and structure wasnt.

    Its also not true that "non profits" dont profit...they have their way of making profits but they funnel the profits through those management companies, like the one in your link that only changed its name and restructured.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/w...t-in-name-only

    Like all charter schools, Buffalo United Charter School is funded with taxpayer dollars. The school is also a nonprofit. But as the New York State auditors wrote, Buffalo United was sending " virtually all of the School's revenues" directly to a for-profit company hired to handle its day-to-day operations.

    Charter schools often hire companies to handle their accounting and management functions. Sometimes the companies even take the lead in hiring teachers, finding a school building, and handling school finances.

    In the case of Buffalo United, the auditors found that the school board had little idea about exactly how the company – a large management firm called National Heritage Academies – was spending the school's money. The school's board still had to approve overall budgets, but it appeared to accept the company's numbers with few questions. The signoff was "essentially meaningless," the auditors wrote.


    It feels like the same debates that occurred when prisons started being privatized, so many were convinced there wasnt a good way to make a profit with all the security needed, the regulations, the health care, the food etc....there was just no way they could really profit, they would simply just do a better job and make more of the money that was allocated...but they are very profitable and they have less room for it than schools do.

    https://www.wested.org/online_pubs/PP-03-02.pdf

    Despite these arguments against and perceptions about EMOs shared by many educationists, EMOs have grown steadily — in the sizes of individual firms, in the number of firms, in the number of schools operated by these firms, and in the number of children attending schools operated by these firms.


    The industry has GROWN, not decreased.

    @Rasselas
    Last edited by Kontrary; 18th May 2016 at 10:43 PM.

  5. #55
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    It would be nice to have my question answered. All this says is that some fraction of some fraction of charter schools are run by some sort of for-profit company. I'm trying to figure out how they make money. I can't do that without a name.

    "Within a couple of years, we're going to see the EMO sector account for more than half of the nation's public charter school students," said Mr. Miron, one of the authors of the policy center's report.
    [/I]

    Schools aren't prisons and the distinction is important because prisons don't mostly have to compete over the treatment of prisoners. Schools DO have to compete over the performance of the children they educate. I'm trying to figure out how a private company gets as good or better results than a public school on the same money. You can help me do that or you can just rant.
    I didnt know that the names of all the EMO"s somehow changed the entire concept or what is happening. But here is a good list of many of them

    Smart Lists: 40 Top Charter Networks & School Managers - Getting Smart by Getting Smart Staff - Charter Schools, Connections, EMO, K12 | Getting Smart


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. You think charter schools can go to the communities they serve and say "we need more money?" That would indicate that they aren't doing a good job.


    Check your claims against reality. Do these management companies create their own textbooks? That market is already sewn up by another set of scam artists. There's not a lot of money to be made on school lunches, since that's a federal program aimed at lowering costs for students. McDonalds or whomever can make more money just getting an outlet into the lunchroom of a public school--something they do already in some upscale communities. They don' have to take on the responsibility for running the school.
    Yes they can show they are being "underfunded" and this is rather easy to do when you can hide money in bills to the management companies. Secondly, as in the link you gave me, YES they get into the textbook business, both selling and writing. Its not just an outlet for the lunch room, its branding and teaching the society how to view all the things that help them profit. They also make money doing it, if my advertising dollars could be removed yet I still accomplish much of my goal and its now PROFIT instead of a bill...yea, thats a good business decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I suspect because it's a problem that takes care of itself. Schooling isn't that profitable unless you're charging students directly. Government schools are all about CONTROLLING payments to schools, and that's antithetical to a private business model unless the private entity can do a better job of controlling costs--which has proven elusive.
    Its not a problem that takes care of itself by a long shot.

    Hedge fund execs' money for charter schools may pay off - NY Daily News

    The title of the hedge fund bosses’ all-day symposium on Tuesday said it all: “Bonds & Blackboards: Investing in Charter Schools.” Sponsored by the Gates Foundation and the Walton Family Foundation, its aim was to convince investors there’s money to be made in charter schools.

    Hedge fund executives have unleashed a tsunami of money the past few years aimed at getting New York’s politicians to close more public schools and expand charter schools.

    They’ve done it through direct political contributions, through huge donations to a web of pro-charter lobbying groups, and through massive TV and radio commercials.


    DO you really think its a problem that takes care of itself? The big business sector is all over it, even spending lots of money to LOBBY, you dont do that as a business person for the "social good", you do it because you PROFIT. You get something of value from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I agree with you in your opposition to letting McDonalds partner with schools. I don't by your slippery slope argument, however. There really is a devil in there, but it's already in via the textbook publishers who already exist and who (claim at least to) pour tons of money into research and development of better materials. A fast food company is ill-equipped to compete in a market so different from the rest of what they do, especially when that market is already heavily controlled by an oligopoly of companies, primarily Pearson.
    Yet we have already SLID down the slope, its not a matter of maybe they will, they are DOING IT NOW.
    Last edited by Kontrary; 18th May 2016 at 10:47 PM.

  6. #56
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    We also have Walmart who is very interested and put a good deal of money into charter schooling

    And btw, in case its not included, there is a management company named Concept schools, that was in a link in the above post, this one has another management company name in it called DC prep. You should have at least a dozen names of specific EMO's by now.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/us...r-schools.html

    In effect, Walton has subsidized an entire charter school system in the nation’s capital, helping to fuel enrollment growth so that close to half of all public school students in the city now attend charters, which receive taxpayer dollars but are privately operated.

    Walton’s investments here are a microcosm of its spending across the country. The foundation has awarded more than $1 billion in grants nationally to educational efforts since 2000, making it one of the largest private contributors to education in the country. It is one of a handful of foundations with strong interests in education, including those belonging to Bill and Melinda Gates of Microsoft; Eli Broad, a Los Angeles insurance billionaire; and Susan and Michael Dell, who made their money in computers. The groups have many overlapping interests, but analysts often describe Walton as following a distinct ideological path.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    The industry has GROWN, not decreased.

    @Rasselas
    But they are non-profits. Full stop.

    The for-profit ones have gone to distance learning, which doesn't give them much opportunity for advertising or any of the things you're concerned about. It's an entirely different thing when students are sitting at home on their computers. They could be sitting home on their computers anyway. What are you afraid of in that?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    But they are non-profits. Full stop.

    The for-profit ones have gone to distance learning, which doesn't give them much opportunity for advertising or any of the things you're concerned about. It's an entirely different thing when students are sitting at home on their computers. They could be sitting home on their computers anyway. What are you afraid of in that?
    I addressed this, they are not "non profit", all their money goes to a "management company" who DOES profit and doesnt have to show how and where they spent the money or what the profits actually are. I provided all that in the links above.

    I think I addressed that question quite specifically in the posts above and included links and names of companies...lobbying efforts and that big corporate business IS very interested and already spending lots of money on the push for these schools. The lack of oversight ALONE is a pretty big thing to be "scared" of. These large corps and big business sectors dont invest to lose money....

    I repeat this link

    https://www.propublica.org/article/w...t-in-name-only

    The school is also a nonprofit. But as the New York State auditors wrote, Buffalo United was sending " virtually all of the School's revenues" directly to a for-profit company hired to handle its day-to-day operations.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    I didnt know that the names of all the EMO"s somehow changed the entire concept or what is happening. But here is a good list of many of them

    Smart Lists: 40 Top Charter Networks & School Managers - Getting Smart by Getting Smart Staff - Charter Schools, Connections, EMO, K12 | Getting Smart




    Yes they can show they are being "underfunded" and this is rather easy to do when you can hide money in bills to the management companies. Secondly, as in the link you gave me, YES they get into the textbook business, both selling and writing. Its not just an outlet for the lunch room, its branding and teaching the society how to view all the things that help them profit. They also make money doing it, if my advertising dollars could be removed yet I still accomplish much of my goal and its now PROFIT instead of a bill...yea, thats a good business decision.
    This just sounds paranoid. With that last bit I've bolded, you've described most of American society since the 1920's.




    Its not a problem that takes care of itself by a long shot.

    Hedge fund execs' money for charter schools may pay off - NY Daily News

    The title of the hedge fund bosses’ all-day symposium on Tuesday said it all: “Bonds & Blackboards: Investing in Charter Schools.” Sponsored by the Gates Foundation and the Walton Family Foundation, its aim was to convince investors there’s money to be made in charter schools.

    Hedge fund executives have unleashed a tsunami of money the past few years aimed at getting New York’s politicians to close more public schools and expand charter schools.

    They’ve done it through direct political contributions, through huge donations to a web of pro-charter lobbying groups, and through massive TV and radio commercials.


    DO you really think its a problem that takes care of itself? The big business sector is all over it, even spending lots of money to LOBBY, you dont do that as a business person for the "social good", you do it because you PROFIT. You get something of value from it.



    Yet we have already SLID down the slope, its not a matter of maybe they will, they are DOING IT NOW.
    The same features that are farmed out by these non-profit EMOs are farmed out to by ALL schools. My public school contracts with a food service provider for lunch and breakfast. Schools have NEVER mostly created their own textbooks. Schools are government entities and government has been using private companies for a very long time, particularly for functions whose needs are inconsistent or that require infrastructure the government agency doesn't want to invest in directly. What you're talking about now is a great deal different from what you were discussing earlier, with McDonalds and other corporations taking over schools in order to brand kids to their products.

    These EMOs you're talking about are still nonprofits. For profit business has not found a way to make brick and mortar schooling--which is most of what goes on--profitable.
    Last edited by Rasselas; 18th May 2016 at 11:53 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    The same features that are farmed out by these non-profit EMOs are farmed out to by ALL schools. My public school contracts with a food service provider for lunch and breakfast. Schools have NEVER mostly created their own textbooks. Schools are government entities and government has been using private companies for a very long time, particularly for functions whose needs are inconsistent or that require infrastructure the government agency doesn't want to invest in directly. What you're talking about now is a great deal different from what you were discussing earlier, with McDonalds and other corporations taking over schools in order to brand kids to their products.
    No it isnt. The schools have LESS accountability and its not at all the same as "farming out" by contracting with people to provide lunch. My links have been very detailed about each feature of this. They contract out for teachers, janitors, security...EVERYTHING through the management company that DOES profit and that doesnt account for how it spends its money.

    I also showed that these large corps are invested heavily in pushing this issue both in lobbying efforts and directly funding them...there is no reason to do that if they dont seek profit. You see the hedge fund groups pushing this hard because there IS profit and they state it very plainly.

    They are taking over a public service and turning it into a "for profit" system that has much less accountability and certainly doesnt have the same priority, and considering what public service we are handing them, the problems are glaringly clear.

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