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Thread: Broad support for charter schools

  1. #61
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    https://seattleducation2010.wordpres...itiative-1240/

    Through their foundation, the Walton family has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to promote charter schools and private schools, and family members are involved in many prominent national organizations pursuing this agenda.

    and

    The family is active in education policy outside of its foundation, too—for example, by injecting money into local political races, often far from where they live:

    Wisconsin: Many of the Walmart heirs have furthered their interests in school privatization by funding Republican candidates for state office in Wisconsin, a state none of them lives in. As the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism reported in September 2011, six members of the family were among the top 10 individual contributors to winning state legislative candidates in the 2010 elections that put Republicans in control of the state government. Under the first budget passed by Gov. Scott Walker and the Republican-majority legislature, funding for public schools was cut by $800 million over two years, while funding for voucher programs that funnel public money to private schools increased by $17 million over two years. Milwaukee, Wisconsin, has the first and largest voucher program in the country, and the Walton Family Foundation provides substantial funding to School Choice Wisconsin, the state’s primary advocate for vouchers.[28]


    And doing it the old fashioned way....buying off politicians.


    The article is a good read, walmart schools are coming, no doubt about that.

  2. #62
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    More on how charter schools seek more money

    Charter schools make bid for more local funding | Chalkbeat

    Charter school advocates Thursday launched an effort to gain what they call a “more equitable” share of local funding through two bills to be introduced in the state Senate.

    “The issue is very simple, it is the equitable treatment of our children,” said Rep. Lang Sias, R-Arvada, one of the sponsors of the legislation.

    At issue is how districts distribute the revenue they gain from additional property taxes they raise beyond the base taxes used to pay for basic school operations.

    Many charters have long complained that some districts don’t give them a share of those extra taxes, known as mill levy overrides
    .


    So these charters feel entitled to share in the public tax purse, if taxes increase, they should get a cut just because more taxes were collected?

    Overrides are a popular tool for districts trying to cope with tight state funding in recent years because such revenues provide money on top of base school budgets. The size of overrides varies widely among districts because of differences in property wealth and voter appetites for tax increases.

    These overrides provide a great way to milk the system but it not show up in how much was "budgeted" for them. And since they go through private management companies, it becomes hard to see what they REALLY need and what they really spend the money on.

    Here is a list of their demands for charter schools

    The second bill is expected to contain a laundry list of other provisions charters want, including:

    Formal notification from districts when vacant buildings and land are available.

    Elimination of the current requirement that charters be open for five years before they can apply for state Building Excellent Schools Today, or BEST, funds.

    Expanding use of funds charters currently receive for building needs so that they also can be used for maintenance.

    Permitting charters in the state’s highest rating category to submit improvement plans every other year rather than annually.

    Streamlining of audit requirements for charters with multiple campuses
    .
    Requiring districts to provide more detailed accounting of services they provide to charters.


    We should also pay attention to the fact that many of these charter schools are provided public buildings and spaces and pay no rent, some pay no utilties etc and that is not factored into the "budget" per student costs either. Its a nice web that can be misleading if you dont look at all the avenues they have to draw from the tax purse.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    More on how charter schools seek more money

    Charter schools make bid for more local funding | Chalkbeat

    Charter school advocates Thursday launched an effort to gain what they call a “more equitable” share of local funding through two bills to be introduced in the state Senate.

    “The issue is very simple, it is the equitable treatment of our children,” said Rep. Lang Sias, R-Arvada, one of the sponsors of the legislation.

    At issue is how districts distribute the revenue they gain from additional property taxes they raise beyond the base taxes used to pay for basic school operations.

    Many charters have long complained that some districts don’t give them a share of those extra taxes, known as mill levy overrides
    .


    So these charters feel entitled to share in the public tax purse, if taxes increase, they should get a cut just because more taxes were collected?

    Overrides are a popular tool for districts trying to cope with tight state funding in recent years because such revenues provide money on top of base school budgets. The size of overrides varies widely among districts because of differences in property wealth and voter appetites for tax increases.

    These overrides provide a great way to milk the system but it not show up in how much was "budgeted" for them. And since they go through private management companies, it becomes hard to see what they REALLY need and what they really spend the money on.

    Here is a list of their demands for charter schools

    The second bill is expected to contain a laundry list of other provisions charters want, including:

    Formal notification from districts when vacant buildings and land are available.

    Elimination of the current requirement that charters be open for five years before they can apply for state Building Excellent Schools Today, or BEST, funds.

    Expanding use of funds charters currently receive for building needs so that they also can be used for maintenance.

    Permitting charters in the state’s highest rating category to submit improvement plans every other year rather than annually.

    Streamlining of audit requirements for charters with multiple campuses
    .
    Requiring districts to provide more detailed accounting of services they provide to charters.


    We should also pay attention to the fact that many of these charter schools are provided public buildings and spaces and pay no rent, some pay no utilties etc and that is not factored into the "budget" per student costs either. Its a nice web that can be misleading if you dont look at all the avenues they have to draw from the tax
    Absolutely we should look at per pupil spending on an apples to apples basis. I still hold to my original premise, which is that pubic education isn't profitable and cannot be made so in ways that are scalable. This is an effort that is doomed to fail--it's simple economics.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    https://seattleducation2010.wordpres...itiative-1240/

    Through their foundation, the Walton family has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to promote charter schools and private schools, and family members are involved in many prominent national organizations pursuing this agenda.

    and

    The family is active in education policy outside of its foundation, too—for example, by injecting money into local political races, often far from where they live:

    Wisconsin: Many of the Walmart heirs have furthered their interests in school privatization by funding Republican candidates for state office in Wisconsin, a state none of them lives in. As the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism reported in September 2011, six members of the family were among the top 10 individual contributors to winning state legislative candidates in the 2010 elections that put Republicans in control of the state government. Under the first budget passed by Gov. Scott Walker and the Republican-majority legislature, funding for public schools was cut by $800 million over two years, while funding for voucher programs that funnel public money to private schools increased by $17 million over two years. Milwaukee, Wisconsin, has the first and largest voucher program in the country, and the Walton Family Foundation provides substantial funding to School Choice Wisconsin, the state’s primary advocate for vouchers.[28]


    And doing it the old fashioned way....buying off politicians.


    The article is a good read, walmart schools are coming, no doubt about that.
    If you think they can sustain an effort to starve public schools but give more money to those run by private entities, I think you aren't considering the nature of the political process. You can see how unpopular Walker has become in Wisconsin precisely because of schemes to give the public purse away to private entities--whether it's schools or an NBA team.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Absolutely we should look at per pupil spending on an apples to apples basis. I still hold to my original premise, which is that pubic education isn't profitable and cannot be made so in ways that are scalable. This is an effort that is doomed to fail--it's simple economics.
    Thats the same argument used to fight for privatizing prisons, there was no real way to make it profitable and they could only get away with a certain level of abuse to save costs yada yada.

    The proof is in how much for profit large scale corps HAVE already spent to push this and how much of an increase there has been in charter schools and the educational management organizations....you claim they are all wasting their money and time...I dont think they are. I think many of these folks are immoral but I dont think they are stupid when it comes to their investments vs returns.

    So you tell me why they have sunk so much money into this and why they have grown so much, why so many of these companies (EMO's) have popped up and only increasing in numbers...why have such large corps and business interests sunk so much money into lobbying politicians to push all this charter school stuff through. You think they all want to perform a social good? You think these for profit businesses want to take over public services for the benefit of something other than profit?

  6. #66
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    If you think they can sustain an effort to starve public schools but give more money to those run by private entities, I think you aren't considering the nature of the political process. You can see how unpopular Walker has become in Wisconsin precisely because of schemes to give the public purse away to private entities--whether it's schools or an NBA team.
    I know they can, they have been at it for a few decades and its worked....they have more and more presence now. They have grown.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    Thats the same argument used to fight for privatizing prisons, there was no real way to make it profitable and they could only get away with a certain level of abuse to save costs yada yada.
    And yet private prisons have proven profitable. There are are all sorts of reasons why prisons can be profitable in ways that schools are not. The evidence shows that schools are not profitable.

    The proof is in how much for profit large scale corps HAVE already spent to push this and how much of an increase there has been in charter schools and the educational management organizations....you claim they are all wasting their money and time...I dont think they are. I think many of these folks are immoral but I dont think they are stupid when it comes to their investments vs returns.
    I think that they are driven by ideology as much as an interest in profit.

    So you tell me why they have sunk so much money into this and why they have grown so much, why so many of these companies (EMO's) have popped up and only increasing in numbers...why have such large corps and business interests sunk so much money into lobbying politicians to push all this charter school stuff through. You think they all want to perform a social good? You think these for profit businesses want to take over public services for the benefit of something other than profit?
    I think they want to adopt their competitive business model to schools. I also think they assume they'll be successful because the same model is successful in business. But education isn't manufacturing, in many ways. Some people have to learn this from experience, since they won't listen to good advice. That's fine--9 out of 10 businesses fail. Let them.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrary View Post
    I know they can, they have been at it for a few decades and its worked....they have more and more presence now. They have grown.
    And there's a political backlash against them also. So long as they have to compete against public institutions, offering education based on the same standards and for the same money, held to account for their outcomes in the same way, I don't think we have much to worry about.

    The boondoggles that private business has tried to foist on education are legion and have a long history. MOOC's were going to revolutionize higher education--we'd only have a handful of universities when it was all done and everyone would learn everything on line. Turns out that doesn't work either.

  9. #69
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    And yet private prisons have proven profitable. There are are all sorts of reasons why prisons can be profitable in ways that schools are not. The evidence shows that schools are not profitable.
    Your contention they are not profitable isnt true. They are. Even the non profit ones are funneling their money to a private for profit management company.

    Its evidence they are profitable because the number of those "for profit" management organizations that do that have increased a lot, so they are doing well.

    What things specifically would make a school less able to profit than a prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think that they are driven by ideology as much as an interest in profit.
    SO should a public service be subservient and beholden to a private for-profit corp's ideology rather than the directly accountable govt? Who voted for their ideology? Who did they discuss it with? When did voters get to see what that was and why do they get to BUY their ideology into policy? Is this an ok practice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think they want to adopt their competitive business model to schools. I also think they assume they'll be successful because the same model is successful in business. But education isn't manufacturing, in many ways. Some people have to learn this from experience, since they won't listen to good advice. That's fine--9 out of 10 businesses fail. Let them.
    And it is profitable...just look at the college for profit industry, and they dont get to tap into the tax purse like public school education will. Education is profitable, especially when owned by those with enough money and power to control our politicians, and those are exactly the ones who are interested, who have been investing and pushing this issue successfully for the last two decades. Thats clear.

    They arent failing, they are growing. Thats not a projection or prediction, thats factual now.

  10. #70
    Veteran Member Kontrary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    And there's a political backlash against them also. So long as they have to compete against public institutions, offering education based on the same standards and for the same money, held to account for their outcomes in the same way, I don't think we have much to worry about.

    The boondoggles that private business has tried to foist on education are legion and have a long history. MOOC's were going to revolutionize higher education--we'd only have a handful of universities when it was all done and everyone would learn everything on line. Turns out that doesn't work either.
    Your whole argument seems to stem from "have faith"....even when faced with facts that already refute the very things you think cant and wont happen.

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