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Thread: A's on the rise but SAT scores fall

  1. #11
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Not when the learning required is precise and mathematical in nature, I agree. But what about in disciplines where any evaluation is, by nature, subjective?
    Your discipline requires the most time consuming grading. Language Art Professors always has a big stack of grading next to them at all times. I follow a rubric religiously to eliminate some of the subjective nature of the assignment. Clinical evaluation of skills are challenging as well. I hand out check off sheets for them to memorize which reduces the amount of grade challenges. I haven't worked for a college in a long time that allows grading on a curve. We can't grade on a curve in HS either.

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    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Scary shit. Do you want a MD that has been graded on a curve? I know a girl that got rejected from Canadian pharmacy schools but was accepted no problem into all her US medical schools. There is something wrong with this picture. Canada doesn't believe this girl is smart enough to make it through pharmacy school but the US thinks this same person will make through medical school?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCProf View Post
    Your discipline requires the most time consuming grading. Language Art Professors always has a big stack of grading next to them at all times. I follow a rubric religiously to eliminate some of the subjective nature of the assignment. Clinical evaluation of skills are challenging as well. I hand out check off sheets for them to memorize which reduces the amount of grade challenges. I haven't worked for a college in a long time that allows grading on a curve. We can't grade on a curve in HS either.
    I'm not sure how an institution would prevent someone from grading whichever way they want. The instructor of record is the only judge of what's a fair or just grade. It's possible to file a grade appeal and win, but only if you can prove that the grading process was either capricious (the student's work didn't matter) or arbitrary (the grade reflected something other than the quality of the student's work). Very difficult to win a grade appeal. This is part of the reason they give senior faculty tenure--so that they can't be intimidated by students or administrators or whomever about grades.

    I use a rubric for grading and I make that rubric available with the assignment, but there's still a lot of subjectivity in any grading system where knowledge is transmitted through words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    Scary shit. Do you want a MD that has been graded on a curve? I know a girl that got rejected from Canadian pharmacy schools but was accepted no problem into all her US medical schools. There is something wrong with this picture. Canada doesn't believe this girl is smart enough to make it through pharmacy school but the US thinks this same person will make through medical school?
    In those fields, the "answer" is quite precise. In professional training programs and graduate study, grading is an entirely different sort of affair, and it's about weeding out people who are inappropriate. In teaching, for example, there are plenty of people with great academic records who lack other skills--interpersonal skills--that are kind of disqualifying. They tend to get weeded out during the credential year (after the end of their undergraduate program) because they either can't pass the interview or they can't produce recommendations that speak to their interpersonal skills, or because the people running the program don't want to put them in student teaching positions.
    Last edited by Rasselas; 21st July 2017 at 09:03 AM.

  5. #15
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    In those fields, the "answer" is quite precise. In professional training programs and graduate study, grading is an entirely different sort of affair.
    We are talking about looking at the same transcript and saying NO in Canada and Yes in the US. Obviously they know an A in the US doesn't mean much so they look at scores of tests they are given like the MCAT or PCAT. Even then the standards or bench marks must be a lot higher in Canada than the US. What does that say?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I'm not sure how an institution would prevent someone from grading whichever way they want. The instructor of record is the only judge of what's a fair or just grade. It's possible to file a grade appeal and win, but only if you can prove that the grading process was either capricious (the student's work didn't matter) or arbitrary (the grade reflected something other than the quality of the student's work). Very difficult to win a grade appeal. This is part of the reason they give senior faculty tenure--so that they can't be intimidated by students or administrators or whomever about grades.

    I use a rubric for grading and I make that rubric available with the assignment, but there's still a lot of subjectivity in any grading system where knowledge is transmitted through words.
    I was told by administration, that grading on a curve is grade inflation...where a 70% is considered a A for example. Standardization is compromised by grade curves as well...for example, if I have a student who fails my class and takes the class again with a instructor who grades on a curve...we are allowing substandard grades to pass a class. But, with Gen Ed classes, I guess it could benefit. I teach core classes with a State Board waiting for them at the end. I can't pass students who will fall on their face when they sit for the State Boards. That is how lawsuits are formed. Even back when I had the option, I never used a curve to grade. Tenure does not guarantee a quality education...I have worked with many lazy Profs who are bullet proof and have ceased to care.
    Last edited by HCProf; 21st July 2017 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I'm not sure how an institution would prevent someone from grading whichever way they want. The instructor of record is the only judge of what's a fair or just grade. It's possible to file a grade appeal and win, but only if you can prove that the grading process was either capricious (the student's work didn't matter) or arbitrary (the grade reflected something other than the quality of the student's work). Very difficult to win a grade appeal. This is part of the reason they give senior faculty tenure--so that they can't be intimidated by students or administrators or whomever about grades.

    I use a rubric for grading and I make that rubric available with the assignment, but there's still a lot of subjectivity in any grading system where knowledge is transmitted through words.
    Pretty much.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eve1 View Post
    We are talking about looking at the same transcript and saying NO in Canada and Yes in the US. Obviously they know an A in the US doesn't mean much so they look at scores of tests they are given like the MCAT or PCAT. Even then the standards or bench marks must be a lot higher in Canada than the US. What does that say?
    I don't know enough about the situation you're talking about to even guess.

  9. #19
    Veteran Member Eve1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I don't know enough about the situation you're talking about to even guess.
    Bottom line, most countries don't even consider high school or university transcripts anymore from the US without some other objective form of measuring knowledge or intelligence when going into professional school.
    An A student from Japan is very different from an A student in the US.
    Thanks from bajisima

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCProf View Post
    I was told by administration, that grading on a curve is grade inflation...where a 70% is considered a A for example. Standardization is compromised by grade curves as well...for example, if I have a student who fails my class and takes the class again with a instructor who grades on a curve...we are allowing substandard grades to pass a class. But, with Gen Ed classes, I guess it could benefit. I teach core classes with a State Board waiting for them at the end. I can't pass students who will fall on their face when they sit for the State Boards. That is how lawsuits are formed. Even back when I had the option, I never used a curve to grade. Tenure does not guarantee a quality education...I have worked with many lazy Profs who are bullet proof and have ceased to care.
    I guess what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing about tenure. Your contract depends on your getting positive evaluations of your teaching, and looking at the grades you give (if they actually do that) could be a part of that process. On the other hand, I'll bet that student evaluations are part of your portfolio as well, and teachers who give well-below average grades tend to suffer in that area.

    I'm a tough grader, or so my students tell me. Yet I usually make sure my average/median grade is no lower than X.

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