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Thread: A University faces a crisis of confidence amongst the working class

  1. #41
    Veteran Member Chief's Avatar
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    Some universities provide tuition free education for deployed veterans. Starting next year the military is also providing a blended retirement programs, where new recruits can still get a pension for 20 years, but also get a 401k type retirement that they keep even if they don't stay 20 years. Also, Tricare access... It's gonna get to a point where folks can't afford not to join the service.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    The conservative take on why college costs so much is fairly straightforward, and I think probably a big piece of the puzzle.

    Basically, free flowing dollars for all from the government sends the message to universities. Go ahead and jack up your costs, because we'll keep making the loans. The government makes money on the loans, as do the various private organizations that service the loans. And since there is no recourse for student loans, borrowers are essentially in a debtor's prison, hamster wheel, too many stories of interest-only payments that they cannot escape this side of the grave, an $8,000 loan that turns into $75,000 in payments, that sort of thing.

    Another con game for Big Finance, in other words. The universities are participants, jacking up their costs in ways that are almost fraudulent even if they do actually spend the money taken in...on ludicrous classes, luxurious accommodations and amenities, essentially roads to nowhere. If kids we going to school, working a part-time job, doing their coursework, and playing frisbee, what the fuck is there to cost $30,000 per year per student? Or even much more?

    And all this in spite of the fact that despite the popular claims, most jobs do NOT require a college degree. Most jobs require training, not 4 years spent fulfilling the requirements of a liberal arts degree and trying to figure out how to get laid. Even advanced technical jobs you can teach people to do in a fraction of that time. Web designers, programmers, network engineers, administrative staff...what about those jobs requires a college degree? What does Psych 101 have to do with me training up to become a good programmer?

    I'm not discounting the Liberal Arts education. I still want it. I'm just saying that if this is how this shit is going to work, I'll get my Liberal Arts education at the library, reading the classics and everything I can get my hands on and teaching myself how to make up my own mind on complicated issues. Honestly, a mentor who could suggest reading and guide you through developing those thought processes, a couple of hours a week for the most part, would do the trick and produce a well rounded, critically thinking, mature adult.

    Who could then go out and learn how to weld pipes together or set up network switches or get in on the ground floor somewhere on the helpdesk learning systems and training up.
    Try getting a good paying job these days without a degree (unless you go to vocational school) In some fields it's so competitive that you need a Master's.

    My daughter has a good paying job for her age - with a liberal arts degree.
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  4. #44
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    A University faces a crisis of confidence amongst the working class

    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Yet you found the school worthy enough to get your grade degree.
    Of course, Iím not bad mouthing university overall, just being honest about its political cognitive dissonance.

    Iím also one of those privileged white heterosexual males that the university hates so passionately. But yet doesnít hate at all. But does. But doesnít.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 9th November 2017 at 12:14 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief View Post
    Some universities provide tuition free education for deployed veterans. Starting next year the military is also providing a blended retirement programs, where new recruits can still get a pension for 20 years, but also get a 401k type retirement that they keep even if they don't stay 20 years. Also, Tricare access... It's gonna get to a point where folks can't afford not to join the service.
    For sure the way people pay for college has to be fixed. Student loans are killing us from an economic point of view.

  6. #46
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    The conservative take on why college costs so much is fairly straightforward, and I think probably a big piece of the puzzle.

    Basically, free flowing dollars for all from the government sends the message to universities. Go ahead and jack up your costs, because we'll keep making the loans. The government makes money on the loans, as do the various private organizations that service the loans. And since there is no recourse for student loans, borrowers are essentially in a debtor's prison, hamster wheel, too many stories of interest-only payments that they cannot escape this side of the grave, an $8,000 loan that turns into $75,000 in payments, that sort of thing.

    Another con game for Big Finance, in other words. The universities are participants, jacking up their costs in ways that are almost fraudulent even if they do actually spend the money taken in...on ludicrous classes, luxurious accommodations and amenities, essentially roads to nowhere. If kids we going to school, working a part-time job, doing their coursework, and playing frisbee, what the fuck is there to cost $30,000 per year per student? Or even much more?

    And all this in spite of the fact that despite the popular claims, most jobs do NOT require a college degree. Most jobs require training, not 4 years spent fulfilling the requirements of a liberal arts degree and trying to figure out how to get laid. Even advanced technical jobs you can teach people to do in a fraction of that time. Web designers, programmers, network engineers, administrative staff...what about those jobs requires a college degree? What does Psych 101 have to do with me training up to become a good programmer?

    I'm not discounting the Liberal Arts education. I still want it. I'm just saying that if this is how this shit is going to work, I'll get my Liberal Arts education at the library, reading the classics and everything I can get my hands on and teaching myself how to make up my own mind on complicated issues. Honestly, a mentor who could suggest reading and guide you through developing those thought processes, a couple of hours a week for the most part, would do the trick and produce a well rounded, critically thinking, mature adult.

    Who could then go out and learn how to weld pipes together or set up network switches or get in on the ground floor somewhere on the helpdesk learning systems and training up.

    Friend of my son was quite the exceptional computer kid in high school. When he got to college, his first week he hacked into the professors computer system and even the professor admitted he knew way more than he ever did. Left that week and now makes 6 figures in Boston working in software programming. Its really hard to convince a kid who has been on a computer his whole life that he needs to learn something from a man as old as his grandfather while paying 50K a year for it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Of course, I’m not bad mouthing university overall, just being honest about its political cognitive dissonance.
    Well considering most conservatives don't choose to go into higher education...it is what it is.

    Both my kids attend or attend college in CA. I've never gotten from them the schools were trying to push a "liberal" agenda on them. I think that part is way overblown for most campuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Try getting a good paying job these days without a degree (unless you go to vocational school) In some fields it's so competitive that you need a Master's.

    My daughter has a good paying job for her age - with a liberal arts degree.
    If you walk into a computer gig sporting a stack of relevant certifications, you'll get the job. As you add experience and maintain those certifications, your pay will go up.

    The demand for degrees is actually reduced in some fields, especially where demand for skills is high, the ability to actually execute is needed, and the degree doesn't really have anything to do with that.

    Obviously if you want to be a doctor, you're going to have to go to school. Lots of professions require lots of study. But a lot of them do not. And even the ones that do, if you think that getting that degree or advanced degree means you're making more money...? Well, maybe it does, in simple terms. As long as you don't factor in the unsolvable debt you're going into to get that degree in the first place.

    If you need the education and the employment prospects will enable you to handle your debt, that's what makes sense. If you do not need the education and paying for it will put you into a crowded job market that pays too little for you to cover your debt... how can you justify going to college in that scenario? All you're doing is crippling yourself, literally for life.

    Fuck.

    That.

  9. #49
    Moderator HayJenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    If you walk into a computer gig sporting a stack of relevant certifications, you'll get the job. As you add experience and maintain those certifications, your pay will go up.

    The demand for degrees is actually reduced in some fields, especially where demand for skills is high, the ability to actually execute is needed, and the degree doesn't really have anything to do with that.

    Obviously if you want to be a doctor, you're going to have to go to school. Lots of professions require lots of study. But a lot of them do not. And even the ones that do, if you think that getting that degree or advanced degree means you're making more money...? Well, maybe it does, in simple terms. As long as you don't factor in the unsolvable debt you're going into to get that degree in the first place.

    If you need the education and the employment prospects will enable you to handle your debt, that's what makes sense. If you do not need the education and paying for it will put you into a crowded job market that pays too little for you to cover your debt... how can you justify going to college in that scenario? All you're doing is crippling yourself, literally for life.

    Fuck.

    That.
    Not disagreeing with any of that. What is important is what job you want after college - and many times you won't even be looked at if you don't have a degree.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Friend of my son was quite the exceptional computer kid in high school. When he got to college, his first week he hacked into the professors computer system and even the professor admitted he knew way more than he ever did. Left that week and now makes 6 figures in Boston working in software programming. Its really hard to convince a kid who has been on a computer his whole life that he needs to learn something from a man as old as his grandfather while paying 50K a year for it.
    That's what I'm talking about. Tech jobs, the world is positively flooded with people who want those jobs, who have degrees or diplomas from various programs, but you get them into the world and the shit hits the fan and they do not know how to handle things. Your son's friend can save a company huge piles of cash because he knows what he's doing. And as you say, they'll pay happily for that.

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