Page 6 of 14 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 132
Thanks Tree32Thanks

Thread: A University faces a crisis of confidence amongst the working class

  1. #51
    Chubby Member
    Joined
    May 2006
    Posts
    9,622
    Thanks
    3020

    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Not disagreeing with any of that. What is important is what job you want after college - and many times you won't even be looked at if you don't have a degree.
    That's true. But if you want to be a teacher...?? You might want to choose to want to be something else. Because you HAVE to have the degree, but you will NEVER make enough to cover your loans, and you will literally spend most of your adult life in hell.

    What is the point of that? You can't cite your love of teaching, a calling. Any joy you might derive from that is going to be erased when you realize you've now paid back $100,000 on your $25,000 loan...and you still owe $25,000.

    You may as well drop out and start selling portraits on the boardwalk. You'll just be poor, not poor and in debt.
    Thanks from bajisima

  2. #52
    Veteran Member bmanmcfly's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    15,813
    Thanks
    2515

    From
    C-A-N-A-D-A-Eh
    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Fascinating piece. Experiencing similar opinions regarding public universities here as well.

    Americans are increasingly losing faith in higher education. Republicans see universities as out of touch, pushing a liberal agenda on their students. Democrats see them as too expensive. Increasingly, the working class sees higher education as not worth the cost — despite the fact that a growing share of jobs require a postsecondary degree.

    Today’s University of Michigan includes more than its share of blue bloods and people with inherited wealth. Like many other flagship state universities that were founded to provide a leg up for the common man, Michigan has become a school largely for students with means. A full 10 percent of its student body comes from families in the top 1 percent of earners, according to data from the Equality of Opportunity Project. Just 16 percent come from families in the bottom 60 percent of earners combined. The median income of parents of students at the university is $156,000, roughly three times the median income of Michigan families.

    There’s a sense that working-class students don’t belong there.

    Indeed, many flagship state universities like Michigan have, despite their public missions, come to operate more like elite private universities, closer in spirit to the Ivy League than the desire for equal opportunity that helped create them. It’s a trend that’s brought increased selectivity but also a crisis of affordability and deep alienation from lower-income communities in the states they’re supposed to serve. Since the late 1990s, nearly two-thirds of public universities increased the share of students in the top 20 percent and reduced the share from the bottom 40 percent.

    “We are shutting the doors of higher education — of public higher education — to low-income students,” said Stephen Burd, who led the New America analysis. “That’s incredibly distressing considering public higher education is supposed to be the cheaper option that common people — real people — could go to. Now you see these public colleges are acting just like the private colleges. It’s kind of scary in terms of what this means for opportunity in this country.”

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...-income-244420
    I'm actually somewhat impressed. .. a politico article that actually examines reality....

    The short answer that the article completely neglected is the principle of supply and demand.

  3. #53
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    14,458
    Thanks
    3873

    From
    AK
    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Well considering most conservatives don't choose to go into higher education...it is what it is.
    Most people aren't conservative, or are at least significantly less conservative, when they're in their college years. So I don't think you get to exploit age-related political tendences to suggest conservatives shun higher education.



    Both my kids attend or attend college in CA. I've never gotten from them the schools were trying to push a "liberal" agenda on them.
    A lot of really liberal people don't see an agenda in liberal echo chambers. They just see it as outright truth and correctness and fact.

    I think that part is way overblown for most campuses.
    More than 80% of economics professors are liberal and aligned with the Democratic Party, and yet that is still significantly more conservative than the rest of the arts, humanities, social sciences and history. How is acknowledging the partisan liberal bias in academia "way overblown?" Pretending this isn't the case is like saying Fox News is fair and balanced because it says it is.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 9th November 2017 at 01:45 PM.

  4. #54
    Moderator HayJenn's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    45,174
    Thanks
    34911

    From
    CA
    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    That's true. But if you want to be a teacher...?? You might want to choose to want to be something else. Because you HAVE to have the degree, but you will NEVER make enough to cover your loans, and you will literally spend most of your adult life in hell.

    What is the point of that? You can't cite your love of teaching, a calling. Any joy you might derive from that is going to be erased when you realize you've now paid back $100,000 on your $25,000 loan...and you still owe $25,000.

    You may as well drop out and start selling portraits on the boardwalk. You'll just be poor, not poor and in debt.
    No, not talking just about teaching, many other jobs require a degree.

    Again, I'm all for revamping the system of how students pay for college. It's obviously NOT working.

  5. #55
    Chubby Member
    Joined
    May 2006
    Posts
    9,622
    Thanks
    3020

    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    No, not talking just about teaching, many other jobs require a degree.

    Again, I'm all for revamping the system of how students pay for college. It's obviously NOT working.
    Yes, I know, I was just using teaching as an example of a degree that you absolutely have to have the degree for, but will almost certainly never pay you enough to cover college loans if you need them.

    And if it were me turning 18 and trying to figure out what to do with my life... I just don't know. Probably do what I did, and study up on my tech and work my way in. There is no substitute for doing a good job, that much is true. Slackers and posers can get over for a while but in the end a reputation for getting shit done goes a long way.

    Not that that his will get me a job with the corporations where policy requires a degree, or a job as a teacher or any of the other jobs that require it. Honestly, if that's what I wanted to be (just as an example), I totally seriously would probably decide I wanted to be something else.

  6. #56
    Moderator HayJenn's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    45,174
    Thanks
    34911

    From
    CA
    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Most people aren't, or are at least significantly less conservative when they're in their college years.
    But that does explain why over time, they choose not to go into higher education



    A lot of really liberal people don't see an agenda in liberal echo chambers. They just see it as outright truth and correctness and fact.
    That's just insulting - neither of my kids are "really liberal"


    More than 80% of economics professors are liberal and aligned with the Democratic Party, and yet that is still significantly more conservative than the rest of the arts, humanities, social sciences and history. How is acknowledging the partisan liberal bias in academia "way overblown?" Pretending this isn't the case is like saying Fox News is fair and balanced because it says it is.
    Because I think it is. How many colleges are in this country? Probably at least 4,000. It's like when the students were protesting at some of them and people here made a big deal out it. It was a handful of students at handful of colleges. That's does not reflect the reality for most college kids.

    But it's a well worn GOP talking point - but the scary thing is, just like a free press we do need higher education...but seems like conservatives are "down" on both.

  7. #57
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    42,396
    Thanks
    25011

    From
    New Hampshire
    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    If you walk into a computer gig sporting a stack of relevant certifications, you'll get the job. As you add experience and maintain those certifications, your pay will go up.

    The demand for degrees is actually reduced in some fields, especially where demand for skills is high, the ability to actually execute is needed, and the degree doesn't really have anything to do with that.

    Obviously if you want to be a doctor, you're going to have to go to school. Lots of professions require lots of study. But a lot of them do not. And even the ones that do, if you think that getting that degree or advanced degree means you're making more money...? Well, maybe it does, in simple terms. As long as you don't factor in the unsolvable debt you're going into to get that degree in the first place.

    If you need the education and the employment prospects will enable you to handle your debt, that's what makes sense. If you do not need the education and paying for it will put you into a crowded job market that pays too little for you to cover your debt... how can you justify going to college in that scenario? All you're doing is crippling yourself, literally for life.

    Fuck.

    That.
    Even then it depends. A lot of companies prefer to bring in visa workers because they are cheaper. My daughter is a chemist and she knows some of the big companies in Boston will only hire a chem grad for 30K which is peanuts. So the American kids laugh at them not thinking they are serious but they are. Biogen, hires a ton from India and China because "the US doesn't graduate enough chemists." Its bull, my daughters class graduated over 100 chemistry grads and less than half got a job in their field. They were paying peanuts for a lot of the entry level jobs.

  8. #58
    Moderator HCProf's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    17,989
    Thanks
    9652

    From
    USA
    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    Try getting a good paying job these days without a degree (unless you go to vocational school) In some fields it's so competitive that you need a Master's.

    My daughter has a good paying job for her age - with a liberal arts degree.
    I have seen so many of my college students who wasted 5 or more years after HS working in retail or the food industry and never getting ahead at minimum wage. You can't even work your way up these days without a degree. I have seen managers skip over a good internal candidate because they do not have a degree and hire off the street for the position. The poor has a lot of opportunity for funding and in some cases have very little in student loans if any at all. It is the working and middle class that is not offered one dime toward education. Tennessee has a good program called the HOPE scholarship and it is based on grades not income. Both my nieces attended community college and did not pay one dime until they entered their Bachelor's program. One is a RN and her hospital is reimbursing her for the BSN and the other one is Premed. Students also need to choose wisely for their program of study. Your daughter lucked out, around here, many of the liberal arts degrees are working at Star Bucks. I know, because I see a lot of them in my healthcare classes, returning to college for a skill. BTW...I paid off approx. 50K in student loans for my BSN and MSN in four years. I worked double shifts at 47 years old.
    Thanks from bajisima and HayJenn

  9. #59
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    42,396
    Thanks
    25011

    From
    New Hampshire
    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    That's what I'm talking about. Tech jobs, the world is positively flooded with people who want those jobs, who have degrees or diplomas from various programs, but you get them into the world and the shit hits the fan and they do not know how to handle things. Your son's friend can save a company huge piles of cash because he knows what he's doing. And as you say, they'll pay happily for that.
    That's the problem with tech in general, the 12 year old kid down the street is more up to date than the 40 year old sitting in the cubicle. So it doesn't always make sense to go into massive debt for that. It all depends.

  10. #60
    Moderator HayJenn's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    45,174
    Thanks
    34911

    From
    CA
    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Yes, I know, I was just using teaching as an example of a degree that you absolutely have to have the degree for, but will almost certainly never pay you enough to cover college loans if you need them.

    And if it were me turning 18 and trying to figure out what to do with my life... I just don't know. Probably do what I did, and study up on my tech and work my way in. There is no substitute for doing a good job, that much is true. Slackers and posers can get over for a while but in the end a reputation for getting shit done goes a long way.

    Not that that his will get me a job with the corporations where policy requires a degree, or a job as a teacher or any of the other jobs that require it. Honestly, if that's what I wanted to be (just as an example), I totally seriously would probably decide I wanted to be something else.
    To each their own. Not everyone wants to be a techie. Besides STEM jobs are hard to find these time. The field is saturated.

    Each family had to decide what is right for them. And we should hold Congress responsible for not doing anything about student debt or how so many family's struggle to find the money to pay for a degree.

Page 6 of 14 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10th May 2017, 08:01 PM
  2. Working Class Zero
    By MaryAnne in forum Current Events
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 20th March 2017, 07:03 AM
  3. Replies: 76
    Last Post: 18th May 2015, 05:38 AM
  4. U.N. sees risk of crisis of confidence in dollar
    By michaelr in forum Economics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 31st May 2011, 07:52 AM

Tags for this Thread


Facebook Twitter RSS Feed