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Thread: A University faces a crisis of confidence amongst the working class

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    That's true. But if you want to be a teacher...?? You might want to choose to want to be something else. Because you HAVE to have the degree, but you will NEVER make enough to cover your loans, and you will literally spend most of your adult life in hell.

    What is the point of that? You can't cite your love of teaching, a calling. Any joy you might derive from that is going to be erased when you realize you've now paid back $100,000 on your $25,000 loan...and you still owe $25,000.

    You may as well drop out and start selling portraits on the boardwalk. You'll just be poor, not poor and in debt.
    Every time someone broad-brushes teaching as an underpaid profession, especially in relation to student loans and how miserable it is to be a teacher starting out nowadays, it needs to be acknowledged that teachers' unions are directly exacerbating this problem by influencing policy that causes older teachers to be overwhelmingly favored at the expense of new teachers. I have heard way too much lying sniveling BS from teachers' unions and their mouthpieces who use problems they actively exacerbate in order to claim teachers are underpaid and shittily treated in general. Every time it's brought up, I will bring up the role of teachers' unions in relation to the working conditions of young teachers, which is enormous.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educ...blem-1.2548352
    https://capitalresearch.org/article/...niority-rules/
    Teacher Tenure -- Unions, Stop Putting Seniority before Performance | National Review

  2. #62
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Every time someone broad-brushes teaching as an underpaid profession, especially in relation to student loans and how miserable it is to be a teacher starting out nowadays, it needs to be acknowledged that teachers' unions are directly exacerbating this problem by influencing policy that causes older teachers to be overwhelmingly favored at the expense of new teachers. I have heard way too much lying sniveling BS from teachers' unions and their mouthpieces who use problems they actively exacerbate in order to claim teachers are underpaid and shittily treated in general. Every time it's brought up, I will bring up the role of teachers' unions in relation to the working conditions of young teachers, which is enormous.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educ...blem-1.2548352
    https://capitalresearch.org/article/...niority-rules/
    Teacher Tenure -- Unions, Stop Putting Seniority before Performance | National Review
    Certainly some truth to that. Our school district is in the process of bringing teachers out of retirement to teach since we cant afford to hire new ones and pay retirement. So the board suggested this instead. We laid off 32 new teachers for it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCProf View Post
    I have seen so many of my college students who wasted 5 or more years after HS working in retail or the food industry and never getting ahead at minimum wage. You can't even work your way up these days without a degree. I have seen managers skip over a good internal candidate because they do not have a degree and hire off the street for the position. The poor has a lot of opportunity for funding and in some cases have very little in student loans if any at all. It is the working and middle class that is not offered one dime toward education. Tennessee has a good program called the HOPE scholarship and it is based on grades not income. Both my nieces attended community college and did not pay one dime until they entered their Bachelor's program. One is a RN and her hospital is reimbursing her for the BSN and the other one is Premed. Students also need to choose wisely for their program of study. Your daughter lucked out, around here, many of the liberal arts degrees are working at Star Bucks. I know, because I see a lot of them in my healthcare classes, returning to college for a skill. BTW...I paid off approx. 50K in student loans for my BSN and MSN in four years. I worked double shifts at 47 years old.
    100% agree with you on the middle class families paying for school. They are the ones who get stuck with the short stick. Most of the good paying companies these days are requiring both some work experience and a degree. My daughter got entry level experience in her field and that helped her a lot to get the new job. Not surprised your loans where so high when it comes to a medical degree. One of my son's bf is pre-med and his estimates his cost is going to be 500K !!!!!

    I have a feeling he's going to working triple shifts down the road.
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    I can't help but resent a system that funnels us through one institution that has a death grip on our earning potential (and it's true, they do), funded and fueled by huge piles of money from the government, serviced by another institution (Wall St and banks) with a documented history of exploiting any one and any situation possible for its own gain, so that I can go to work for one of the few industries (healthcare) where I can actually get a job...because it is funded by an equally corrupt and ruined system that is also using the government and the levers of monopolistic insurance and finance industries to forcibly extract money from the people who GENERATE IT: the middle class.

    It's a good point about the poor getting plenty of help for school, actually, while the middle class does not. You can go to HARVARD for nothing if your family doesn't make any money and you can earn your way in the door. Fuckin A. But if your family is earning a nice $120K living a modest middle class life, there is nothing available except loans. "Well, you should have saved." Maybe so. Maybe your parents should have saved $100,000 for each kid to be able to attend a university and get that degree. Of course, they probably weren't making $120,000 when they started. And they had to buy a house, and they've bought 6 cars since you were born, and health insurance costs them $1,300/month...

    This is why most Americans literally have nothing. Zero or negative net worth. Hamster wheel. Or maybe all those countless millions of people are just lazy, and don't care about taking care of themselves. Yeah, that's probably it...
    Thanks from HayJenn

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCProf View Post
    I have seen so many of my college students who wasted 5 or more years after HS working in retail or the food industry and never getting ahead at minimum wage. You can't even work your way up these days without a degree. I have seen managers skip over a good internal candidate because they do not have a degree and hire off the street for the position. The poor has a lot of opportunity for funding and in some cases have very little in student loans if any at all. It is the working and middle class that is not offered one dime toward education. Tennessee has a good program called the HOPE scholarship and it is based on grades not income. Both my nieces attended community college and did not pay one dime until they entered their Bachelor's program. One is a RN and her hospital is reimbursing her for the BSN and the other one is Premed. Students also need to choose wisely for their program of study. Your daughter lucked out, around here, many of the liberal arts degrees are working at Star Bucks. I know, because I see a lot of them in my healthcare classes, returning to college for a skill. BTW...I paid off approx. 50K in student loans for my BSN and MSN in four years. I worked double shifts at 47 years old.
    A big problem preventing upward mobility in relation to those who are "wasting their time" after high school is the need for birth control during this period of time. Millions end up having babies before they have a chance to get this education, and it is extremely difficult to raise babies and support a family while getting a college education. I have two little kids and it sounds impossible to me. Education has to precede starting a family, and that means one way or another there needs to be effective birth control from ages 16 to... I don't know, hell, 30?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bajisima View Post
    Certainly some truth to that. Our school district is in the process of bringing teachers out of retirement to teach since we cant afford to hire new ones and pay retirement. So the board suggested this instead. We laid off 32 new teachers for it.
    And this is such a self-defeating long-term strategy, for everyone. It's bad for the teaching profession, bad for the district, even bad for unions. Backward-minded, pearl-clutching idiocy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Every time someone broad-brushes teaching as an underpaid profession, especially in relation to student loans and how miserable it is to be a teacher starting out nowadays, it needs to be acknowledged that teachers' unions are directly exacerbating this problem by influencing policy that causes older teachers to be overwhelmingly favored at the expense of new teachers. I have heard way too much lying sniveling BS from teachers' unions and their mouthpieces who use problems they actively exacerbate in order to claim teachers are underpaid and shittily treated in general. Every time it's brought up, I will bring up the role of teachers' unions in relation to the working conditions of young teachers, which is enormous.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educ...blem-1.2548352
    https://capitalresearch.org/article/...niority-rules/
    Teacher Tenure -- Unions, Stop Putting Seniority before Performance | National Review
    Fact remains, if you want to be a teacher, you will go to school for 4 years minimum, and then if you're lucky get a job making peanuts. And if you last, and get past that tenuous stage when you might be kicked out the door at any moment in favor of some old blue haired bitch that's put in her union years, you STILL won't make very much.

    So whether or not you like unions (I'm not sure...are you in favor of unions...it's unclear to me...) the fact remains that teaching is an example of a profession where you have to have a degree, and you will not earn much even if you do have a job, even if you survive the cut into the greener pastures of seniority, and you may very well literally spend the entirety of your life servicing your student loans.

    Because college costs way too fucking much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    And this is such a self-defeating long-term strategy, for everyone. It's bad for the teaching profession, bad for the district, even bad for unions. Backward-minded, pearl-clutching idiocy.
    I can't help but wonder if these retired teachers continue to pull bennies out of that retirement plan, too, so their healthcare costs are covered by the union retirement money instead of by the school district. Because that is some seriously big dollars right there, too.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayJenn View Post
    100% agree with you on the middle class families paying for school. They are the ones who get stuck with the short stick. Most of the good paying companies these days are requiring both some work experience and a degree. My daughter got entry level experience in her field and that helped her a lot to get the new job. Not surprised your loans where so high when it comes to a medical degree. One of my son's bf is pre-med and his estimates his cost is going to be 500K !!!!!

    I have a feeling he's going to working triple shifts down the road.
    OMG...you should talk to a doctor about their student loans...some pay 4-5K per month!! If your son's friend decides to practice medicine rural or urban, he may get some relief, since shortages of doctors is becoming a issue. I worked with one, who chose to open a practice in Cleveland and he received quite a bit of relief on his loan.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    Fact remains, if you want to be a teacher, you will go to school for 4 years minimum, and then if you're lucky get a job making peanuts.
    But it doesn't necessarily make peanuts for everyone. There's compensation and working standards inequality within the teaching profession, which has been created by teachers' unions and their insistence on tenure and seniority policies, LIFO layoff policies and other seniority privilege. There is a relatively protected and privileged class within the teaching profession and this is totally as a result of teachers' unions, and that makes it completely necessary to mention in the context of complaining about how unattractive the teaching profession is to new entrants.

    So whether or not you like unions (I'm not sure...are you in favor of unions...it's unclear to me...)
    LOL.

    the fact remains that teaching is an example of a profession where you have to have a degree, and you will not earn much even if you do have a job, even if you survive the cut into the greener pastures of seniority, and you may very well literally spend the entirety of your life servicing your student loans.

    Because college costs way too fucking much.
    I'm not arguing with your observations here, I'm just saying that looking at the full picture requires acknowledging the overwhelmingly influential role NEA and AFT have had in creating teacher compensation policy in this country. Left wingers seem to consistently refuse to acknowledge the inequality within the teaching profession, instead preferring only to lament teacher compensation generally, but usually by referencing the worst-off teachers (young ones).

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