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Thread: Judge says there's no fundamental right to learn to read and write

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    I disagree. The judge was not ruling on international law, but on US law.

    We may not like it, but it is what it is.
    In the world, among civilized peoples, that opinion is the exception. Better now?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangecat View Post
    I'm an exceptional person living in an exceptional country.
    I had never thought that american exceptionalism included our lack of a constitutional commitment to universal, free public education.

    I do agree, you are exceptional.

  3. #43
    #walkaway orangecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    I had never thought that american exceptionalism included our lack of a constitutional commitment to universal, free public education.

    I do agree, you are exceptional.
    We are a land of exceptional opportunity, not exceptional entitlement.
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  4. #44
    Member Robert Urbanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightSwimmer View Post
    There's no point in suing a teacher. Hell, they're the most dirt poor degreed professionals out there. It would be like squeezing blood from a turnip.
    The average salary for a Michigan public school teacher was $62,280 in 2016-17, the first time in five years that the average has increased, according to the Michigan Department of Education. But the average is still almost $750 below the peak in 2009-10, when teacher salaries averaged $63,024.

    Source: https://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018...her_salar.html

    Not a Silicon Valley salary but still a decent middle class wage and a better-than-you-deserve salary if you are failing to teach students how to read and write.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangecat View Post
    We are a land of exceptional opportunity, not exceptional entitlement.
    OBL's father immigrated to Saudi Arabia as a teenager. He was poor, illiterate, and blind in one eye - still he managed to create a business, and make a fortune. (unlike our president who inherited his)

    There is always opportunity for exceptional people no matter where in the world they live. The American dream for for the average, not the exceptional.

    The great mass of the articles on which impost is paid is foreign luxuries, purchased by those only who are rich enough to afford themselves the use of them. Their patriotism would certainly prefer its continuance and application to the great purposes of the public education, roads, rivers, canals, and such other objects of public improvement as it may be thought proper to add to the constitutional enumeration of federal powers. Thomas Jefferson

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Urbanek View Post
    The average salary for a Michigan public school teacher was $62,280 in 2016-17, the first time in five years that the average has increased, according to the Michigan Department of Education. But the average is still almost $750 below the peak in 2009-10, when teacher salaries averaged $63,024.

    Source: https://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018...her_salar.html

    Not a Silicon Valley salary but still a decent middle class wage and a better-than-you-deserve salary if you are failing to teach students how to read and write.
    Teachers dont even make a Silicon Valley salary in Silicon Valley.

  7. #47
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Urbanek View Post
    The average salary for a Michigan public school teacher was $62,280 in 2016-17, the first time in five years that the average has increased, according to the Michigan Department of Education. But the average is still almost $750 below the peak in 2009-10, when teacher salaries averaged $63,024.

    Source: https://www.mlive.com/expo/erry-2018...her_salar.html

    Not a Silicon Valley salary but still a decent middle class wage and a better-than-you-deserve salary if you are failing to teach students how to read and write.

    If one is failing to do their job, then they should be terminated, as many are. Qualified teachers who have significantly invested in an education in order to practice their profession should be compensated better than they are. It is only in your vivid imagination that every public school teacher out there is failing to do their job.
    Thanks from BDBoop, HCProf and Wonderer

  8. #48
    #walkaway orangecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    The American dream for for the average, not the exceptional.
    The american dream is for anyone who wishes to apply themselves. The american reality is that exceptional people generally succeed to greater degrees.
    Thanks from Wonderer

  9. #49
    Thought Provocateur NightSwimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangecat View Post
    The american dream is for anyone who wishes to apply themselves. The american reality is that exceptional people generally succeed to greater degrees.

    There is absolutely nothing uniquely "American" about that.
    Thanks from labrea and Ian Jeffrey

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderer View Post
    So, here's the opinion. The analysis of the Due Process challenge (and the Court's explanation of its ultimate conclusion as to the "fundamental right" question) begins on p. 22. It is a thorough discussion, including a review of SCOTUS precedent. And it is going to come across as a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo to anyone but the geekiest of constitutional law scholars. I've read and studied constitutional law cases for the better part of 30 years and my eyes still glaze over when I try to wrap my brain around substantive due process and negative vs. positive "rights". I get what the Judge is saying (he's not just pulling this out of thin air) but I also get why, when it's distilled to the most salient point, many will object to the conclusion he reaches. Because it seems cold. And runs counter to our notions re: education and literacy. He's right that the SCOTUS has not held literacy as a fundamental right. They've tiptoed up to and around the question to this point. Perhaps this case will be appealed and they'll be asked to revisit it.
    Perhaps I don't understand this case well enough, but it seems to me that this is another in a series of decisions we've seen recently that essentially eviscerates constitutional protections because judges insist that while rights or obligations of government exist, it's up to government itself to define those rights and obligations entirely. The president can't be foreign born, but no one has standing to ask a court to act against such a person being elected. The president can make recess appointments when congress isn't in session, but congress may define "in session" in whatever way it likes, even if it has no quorum for weeks. And constitutions may require that the state educate all children, but they can define "education" any way they like, including not providing even the most basic education like literacy.

    An obligation isn't an obligation is the person obliged can define that obligation out of existence.
    Thanks from Ian Jeffrey and BDBoop

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