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Thread: Student Loans: The Next Bailout?

  1. #51
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    I blame George Zimmerman.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by septimine View Post
    The concern I have with allowing all student debt to be discharged in bankruptcy is that unlike a loan for a car or a house, there's nothing to reposses if you refuse to pay.
    Again, the lenders would have an incentive to keep costs manageable. They would have to structure their loans based on the plan, based on what the student intended to study, what field they were looking at, and how much money that might pay them going forward. And those loans would be revisited each year to make sure the student was doing what he said he would, and not just taking easy classes and fucking off 80% of the time. The bank also works in all the ways it currently does to drive costs up...to keep costs down. A loan that is unmanageable and cannot be paid back and for which there is no collateral is senseless.

    So you only make loans that jibe with the degree being sought. In the end, the person graduates, gets a job with their new MBA on Wall Street making $95K, and they pay back their loans. If they don't and they declare bankruptcy, they ruin their financial reputation for years. As long as the size of the loans is commensurate with the amount of money that graduates can make, it will not be worth sacrificing one's financial reputation to declare bankruptcy to get out from under the loans.

    In other words, all the forces involved in this market push against each other, and the end result is that people think more about where and why they're going to school, and everyone involved from the banks to the schools have a vested interest in keeping costs down.

  3. #53
    Senior Member septimine's Avatar
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    Well, yeah if you're a banker that would work, but a kid coming out of college with an engineering degree isn't in the same boat. The guy on Wall Street trades on his name and his financial reputation. The engineer trades on the fact that he knows how to make a bridge that doesn't fall down. If there's no permanent consequence of not paying off the loans, it's not going to work well. I could see discharging 50% or less of the debt in bankruptcy, but 100% is still asking for fraud/theft as you still can't reposses the education. I suppose you could negate the degree, but I don't know how that would work. But the point is that the degree is going to outlast the bankruptcy, and the bankruptcy may not matter in all industries, so there still would be some fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by septimine View Post
    Well, yeah if you're a banker that would work, but a kid coming out of college with an engineering degree isn't in the same boat. The guy on Wall Street trades on his name and his financial reputation. The engineer trades on the fact that he knows how to make a bridge that doesn't fall down. If there's no permanent consequence of not paying off the loans, it's not going to work well. I could see discharging 50% or less of the debt in bankruptcy, but 100% is still asking for fraud/theft as you still can't reposses the education. I suppose you could negate the degree, but I don't know how that would work. But the point is that the degree is going to outlast the bankruptcy, and the bankruptcy may not matter in all industries, so there still would be some fraud.
    As opposed to now, where the entire system is corrupt and people are basically selling themselves into indentured servitude over a degree.

    ...which we both agree most people would be smarter to simply skip and educate themselves in a more intelligent way.

    But then, that's a pretty harsh indictment of the existing system...when we're both recommending basically that you just boycott the whole thing and go do something else.

    I guess ultimately, that's what I would hope we would do. $40,000/year for college? Fuck'em. Let them soak up the dwindling attendance as more and more people abandon their horseshit system and move on with their lives at technical schools and less expensive smaller colleges and universities. The market speaks.

    And this argument that oh! it's so awful! our children won't get educated! Nonsense. This idea that you can hand over a pile of money and presto! your kids are educated was always flawed. The vast, and I mean overwhelming majority of people I know have degrees that they have done little to nothing with. I know a boatload of English majors, history majors, art majors, philosophy majors, and psychology majors that are software engineers, network engineers, sales people, etc. If we're arguing for rounding ourselves out as people...a 4-year degree is not necessary...or particularly effective, in my experience. Most people are not well-rounded, skillful critical thinkers. They're just not. And yet they have degrees. But anyone who's been to college knows that much of the time is spent dealing with social issues, just fucking off, trying to get laid, etc. The ones who pursue enlightenment find it. Most people pursue a degree, preferably with a 2+ GPA, and don't really have much of a clue why they're even doing that.

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    Well of course Robama agrees. Obama says the student loan interest shouldn't increase and Romney jumped on the bandwagon. Personally, I think Romney is going to win on THAT particular point because he ALSO promised to get down on his knees and ---- my ----. Its 2012, 'here comes Santa Claus' - pander, pander, pander....creditors take notice. We're never going to pay you back, we have no intention of paying you back, the Republicans have no intention of paying you back. Stop lending us money you fools.
    Last edited by NewPublius; 8th May 2012 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    As opposed to now, where the entire system is corrupt and people are basically selling themselves into indentured servitude over a degree.

    ...which we both agree most people would be smarter to simply skip and educate themselves in a more intelligent way.

    But then, that's a pretty harsh indictment of the existing system...when we're both recommending basically that you just boycott the whole thing and go do something else.

    I guess ultimately, that's what I would hope we would do. $40,000/year for college? Fuck'em. Let them soak up the dwindling attendance as more and more people abandon their horseshit system and move on with their lives at technical schools and less expensive smaller colleges and universities. The market speaks.

    And this argument that oh! it's so awful! our children won't get educated! Nonsense. This idea that you can hand over a pile of money and presto! your kids are educated was always flawed. The vast, and I mean overwhelming majority of people I know have degrees that they have done little to nothing with. I know a boatload of English majors, history majors, art majors, philosophy majors, and psychology majors that are software engineers, network engineers, sales people, etc. If we're arguing for rounding ourselves out as people...a 4-year degree is not necessary...or particularly effective, in my experience. Most people are not well-rounded, skillful critical thinkers. They're just not. And yet they have degrees. But anyone who's been to college knows that much of the time is spent dealing with social issues, just fucking off, trying to get laid, etc. The ones who pursue enlightenment find it. Most people pursue a degree, preferably with a 2+ GPA, and don't really have much of a clue why they're even doing that.
    I agree with this post and your previous ones to a point. Yes, you can educate yourself. However, some jobs require X degree. That's the whole reason I went to college in the first place. It simply looks good on your resume, that's inescapable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiGragg View Post
    I agree with this post and your previous ones to a point. Yes, you can educate yourself. However, some jobs require X degree. That's the whole reason I went to college in the first place. It simply looks good on your resume, that's inescapable.
    So we agree. Education is an investment, and people shouldn't spend boatloads of money and go into crippling debt on an investment that is highly unlikely to ever pay them back. On the other hand, people might want to consider going $250,000 in to debt to acquire an MBA from Harvard, or to become an anesthesiologist or a banker, of course.

    The problem is the fact that people are reflexively going to college and digging themselves into enormous debt without thinking about whether or not it's actually worth it. In some cases, it is. In most, it is not, and at the very least, acquiring some credits from a less expensive institution to complete a degree should be considered. Or some other alternative, like technical school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    So we agree. Education is an investment, and people shouldn't spend boatloads of money and go into crippling debt on an investment that is highly unlikely to ever pay them back. On the other hand, people might want to consider going $250,000 in to debt to acquire an MBA from Harvard, or to become an anesthesiologist or a banker, of course.

    The problem is the fact that people are reflexively going to college and digging themselves into enormous debt without thinking about whether or not it's actually worth it. In some cases, it is. In most, it is not, and at the very least, acquiring some credits from a less expensive institution to complete a degree should be considered. Or some other alternative, like technical school.
    Agreed. As well there are other ways to make your resume look good. For example, you could go into computer science and without a degree you could fill the resume with experiences you've had. In this digital age, there are a vast number (perhaps innumerable) of alternatives to make yourself appealing to an employer. College as an investment may in fact become outdated with further progression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiGragg View Post
    Agreed. As well there are other ways to make your resume look good. For example, you could go into computer science and without a degree you could fill the resume with experiences you've had. In this digital age, there are a vast number (perhaps innumerable) of alternatives to make yourself appealing to an employer. College as an investment may in fact become outdated with further progression.
    You can also get an inexpensive degree and pad it with certifications from places like Wharton, or Harvard and Princeton, which offer workshops and classes and seminars publicly that you can take an slap on your resume, right there under your (cheap) bachelor's degree: Wharton Business Management Certificate, or whatever. Sure, you went to a seminar for 3 days and learned some business management tools. It's not an MBA. But it says "Wharton", after all, and the damage is done. It's in their head and you seem more valuable.

    And computers, absolutely. Tech school is one way to go, but you don't even need that. Just get certified. You can spend a few thousand dollars on a lab for your basement and build it up and tear it down daily. Then go testing. Cisco will charge you $250 for most tests. Pass 5 of those and you'll be fighting them off. Microsoft will charge you $125. Pile up 6 or 10 of those. Mix in a certificate here and there from a school with a nice name, and you're at least as appealing to an employer as somebody with a B.S. in computer science and no certifications.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by splansing View Post
    You can also get an inexpensive degree and pad it with certifications from places like Wharton, or Harvard and Princeton, which offer workshops and classes and seminars publicly that you can take an slap on your resume, right there under your (cheap) bachelor's degree: Wharton Business Management Certificate, or whatever. Sure, you went to a seminar for 3 days and learned some business management tools. It's not an MBA. But it says "Wharton", after all, and the damage is done. It's in their head and you seem more valuable.

    And computers, absolutely. Tech school is one way to go, but you don't even need that. Just get certified. You can spend a few thousand dollars on a lab for your basement and build it up and tear it down daily. Then go testing. Cisco will charge you $250 for most tests. Pass 5 of those and you'll be fighting them off. Microsoft will charge you $125. Pile up 6 or 10 of those. Mix in a certificate here and there from a school with a nice name, and you're at least as appealing to an employer as somebody with a B.S. in computer science and no certifications.
    Actually, for programming, getting in on a project might be better than sitting in a class. there are a ton of them out there, and I think saying "I helped program the AI for a business system" is going to get you farther than even Harvard. I think it's true for most jobs -- I'd rather have a salesman who has sold things similar to mine, not some dude with a big name degree. I want a guy on my team that's done my sort of work, especially in an actual business setting, rather than some kids who studied the theory. Fuck theory -- people don't behave according to any theory. I want to know that you can do the job at hand with no need to get up to speed -- I don't want to waste time on someone who's been taught by a bunch of profs who've never been out of college. I don't want you to write a paper on how to make me money -- shut up and make me money.

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