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Thread: Are the English Fit to Govern Themselves?

  1. #11
    Member Iolo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelfrith View Post
    I voted Brexit and would be called a Bennite. My family voted Brexit because of the innate conservatism of the EU. My best mate vote Brexit because of the fisheries policy. My other mates voted Brexit because the status quo has failed them.

    The decimation of the UKIP vote shows that this goes well beyond nationalism. You've chosen a pathetic source to pander to some idiotic anti-English tosspottedness. In contrast, this is a brilliant piece of journalism:

    Interesting. My problem has always been to understand what 'England' actually means. The bits of it seem to have nothing in common except a language they share with half the world, and usually they seem to be talking about Britain or the United Kingdom when they use the word. Even their national poet seemed to believe it was an island!

  2. #12
    Scucca Æthelfrith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
    Interesting. My problem has always been to understand what 'England' actually means. The bits of it seem to have nothing in common except a language they share with half the world, and usually they seem to be talking about Britain or the United Kingdom when they use the word. Even their national poet seemed to believe it was an island!
    The problem with England is the dominance of London. Makes any comment, from culture to economics, darn difficult. Personally I'm more St Edmund and less St George!
    Thanks from Iolo

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    You know with identity, you find what you brought with you..... Evereyone focuses on what seems important for him, and you mentioned Bayrisch,fine !
    Fine?

    Most Swiss Germans would share your opinion with their 19 different dialects. But for us French speaking Swiss we do not need to rely on dialects to find our national identity.
    Your identity has nothing to do with your language? ... Hmmm ... if you say so ... nevertheless I doubt this ...

    History made us Swiss and we decided to be that way and Switzerland as a whole is a Willensnation (anation made by the will of its people), not based on one ethnicity, language, culture etc.....
    I know.

    For the United Kingdom things are not very different.
    Not different? Switzerland and Great Britain? You are for example not "tolerated" in Switzerland. You are Swiss. And if someone likes to "tolerate" you - in the English way of this word - then you will give him a kick in the ass.

    As long as people living there could project themselves in a common vision or project, there was no problem.
    Vision? Project? ... ?

    The Irish in fact have been excluded from the that vision and had to fight hard to have their différences recognized which led to the Irish Quesiton.
    Which Irish question? The Irish died on hunger, millions had to flee and the Brits exported food from Ireland to England the same time. When had Switzerland a vision like this or made such a project? Never or never? So which damned question do you speak about? The independence of Irland is not a question. "Death or alive" was the question. And the Irish answer was "alive".

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 26th June 2017 at 09:26 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaangalewa View Post
    Fine?



    Your identity has nothing to do with your language? ... Hmmm ... if you say so ... nevertheless I doubt this ...



    I know.



    Not different? Switzerland and Great Britain? You are for example not "tolerated" in Switzerland. You are Swiss. And if someone likes to "tolerate" you - in the English way of this word - then you will give him a kick in the ass.



    Vision? Project? ... ?



    Which Irish question? The Irish died on hunger, millions had to flee and the Brits exported food from Ireland to England the same time. When had Switzerland a vision like this or made such a project? Never or never? So which damned question do you speak about? The independence of Irland is not a question. "Death or alive" was the question. And the Irish answer was "alive".

    I desagree with you...... Under British rule Irish people were dominated and often starving..... But you do not build automatically a nation on that..... Many Irish left to the US and the ones who remained effectively tried not to be alienated and revived and reinvented their culture and as many others used religion just to exist differently from the British.... but the question of physical life or death was not at that time enhancing Irish values and came later...

    Beside that you focus on dialects but it is only a possible element but not a necessary one to build a regional identity and Switzerland is certainly a good example of a nation, where dialects are not at the core of what led to have it existing for centuries at the difference of Norway which created during the XIXth Century a new language the Ny Norsk, to stress its identity against Sweden and Swedish rule, which led to its independance in 1905.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    I desagree with you......
    So what? Who becomes alive now?

    what Under British rule Irish people were dominated and often starving.....
    Sorry - but who gave the Brits any right to dominate anyone in the world?

    But you do not build automatically a nation on that.....
    I would not know why to build nations makes any sense at all. Why for example conquered the Prussians all other German tribes (=German nations) and made them to provinces of Prussia? Only on very simple reasons: Because they were unbelievable ignorant and aggressive idiots with an army which owned the state.

    Many Irish left to the US
    Had to leave Ireland - and the USA helped them. By the way: the bad deeds of states or nations will cause negative effects for 3-4 generations - but the good deeds will cause good effects for thousand generations. God bless the USA.

    and the ones who remained effectively tried not to be alienated and revived and reinvented their culture and as many others used religion just to exist differently from the British...
    The British used religion (the state religion Anglican) to be different from others. Not the Irish used religion to be different from the Brits. The Irish are in most cases completely normal international Catholics. To be a member of our global church means not not to have any local identity anymore.

    but the question of physical life or death was not at that time enhancing Irish values and came later...
    I did not say England made anything well in the politics with their neighbor Ireland at any time of history. This ugly disaster shows only how the graceless Brits thought once about the Irish "race". By the way: To have to change religion for a piece of bread is okay. To force others to have to change religion is not okay.

    Beside that you focus on dialects
    Only to make something clear: Bavarian is an own language which is grammatically much far from the German language than the language Yiddish for example. Yiddish has more differences in the words - Bavarian has more differences in the grammar. And although English, Yiddish and Bavarian are German languages they are not the German language. Bavaria was separated once in two parts in history: In Austria and Bavaria. The area of tribal duchy Bavaria was in the 8th century Austria, the North of Italy and Bavaria.

    but it is only a possible element but not a necessary one to build a regional identity and Switzerland is certainly a good example of a nation, where dialects are not at the core of what led to have it existing for centuries at the difference of Norway which created during the XIXth Century a new language the Ny Norsk, to stress its identity against Sweden and Swedish rule, which led to its independance in 1905.
    Aha. We are independent from Sweden since 1648. They are independent from us since 1945.

    Last edited by zaangalewa; 26th June 2017 at 10:18 PM.

  6. #16
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    I do not challenge the fact that Bayerisch may be a language of its own.... When in Munich, I really understand people only after a few days.... But you can say the same with many German dialects.... And within tiny Switzerland dialects may be so different, that most Swiss Germans do not understand the dialect spoken in the German speaking part of Wallis......


    For the rest you seem to have some nostalgy of the Holy Roman Empire...... whicg is part of History too....

  7. #17
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iolo View Post
    England has very seldom run itself - Germans, Norsemen, Normans and very many foreign dynasties set up its foreign ruling class, with which incredible numbers of its people identify. But if its not fit to rule itself, at least let it be separate. Think of the rest of us otherwise!
    The English Channel is what separates civilization from barbarism.

    I hear that's a popular joke in Merrie Olde England.

  8. #18
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galatin View Post
    I do not challenge the fact that Bayerisch may be a language of its own.... When in Munich, I really understand people only after a few days.... But you can say the same with many German dialects.... And within tiny Switzerland dialects may be so different, that most Swiss Germans do not understand the dialect spoken in the German speaking part of Wallis......


    For the rest you seem to have some nostalgy of the Holy Roman Empire...... whicg is part of History too....
    The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman, nor yet was it an Empire.
    Thanks from Iolo

  9. #19
    Radical Centrist BigLeRoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æthelfrith View Post
    The problem with England is the dominance of London. Makes any comment, from culture to economics, darn difficult. Personally I'm more St Edmund and less St George!
    The trouble with England is that it is full of Englishmen.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLeRoy View Post
    The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy nor Roman, nor yet was it an Empire.
    But nostalgy is still present........

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