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Thread: US has the worst rate of maternal deaths in the developed world

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennyson View Post
    You are welcome to make a comparison between countries using the same criteria and account for the heterogeneity difference. The Gates Foundation tried and spent a lot of money, and conceded failure because it cannot be done.
    And when we compare ourselves to ourselves, how do you explain that?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/h...mortality.html
    Last edited by labrea; 26th September 2017 at 02:00 PM.

  2. #32
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of the conservative song and dance. I've heard it again and again. That was the first thing I posted about in this thread.

    Tell the conservatives that maternal mortality is high here, and they'll insist that maternal mortality can't be compared, but that the babies are doing well. Show them that the babies are, in fact, not doing well, and they'll insist you can't compare infant mortality, due to unsubstantiated assertions about how stillborn babies or preemies get counted (these right-wing assertions are pretty much always paraphrased from some right-wing propaganda site, rather than backed up by actual evidence). If I address this now by pointing out that children age 1-to-5 die in the US at rates equally or even more elevated relative to kids in the same age group in other developed countries, as is true, you'll surely have some reason those stats don't count, either. And if I show mortality is higher for Americans age 5-to-10, to an even greater proportional extent, you'll go hunting for some right-wing site to tell you why you're at liberty to ignore that, as well. We could go right on up the mortality rates, for teens, twenties, and so on. I've been through this before. For every age range, there was some half-clever, wholly-unsubstantiated assertion for why that elevated mortality was a statistical illusion or had nothing to do with healthcare (e.g., American teens just die more because they drive more).

    That's how debates work when one side starts with an unshakable quasi-religious faith in its conclusions. It doesn't matter how many pieces of evidence show they're wrong. They'll just bend their efforts to coming up with a reason the evidence can be ignored, then they'll return to their evidence-free beliefs.

    So yes, I get it: maternal mortality, infant mortality, and every other category of mortality can't be compared -- not for any reason you cited, but because comparing them would suggest something you're not comfortable with.

    Sort of like you did entering the issue absolutely certain that lack of Universal Healthcare was the root cause of the the high US mortality rates being reported....??
    Last edited by pragmatic; 26th September 2017 at 02:00 PM.
    Thanks from Tennyson

  3. #33
    A Character Tennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    And when we compare ourselves to ourselves, how do you explain that?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/h...mortality.html
    I believe I covered that.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    Free market theory says people choose well when they have perfect information. In some low income areas, people don't even have access to fresh fruit and vegetables, or safe places to get some exercise.
    Riiiight.... "food deserts". You really aren't up to this discussion, are you?

  5. #35
    Junior Member Claudius the God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkady View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of the conservative song and dance. I've heard it again and again. That was the first thing I posted about in this thread.

    Tell the conservatives that maternal mortality is high here, and they'll insist that maternal mortality can't be compared, but that the babies are doing well. Show them that the babies are, in fact, not doing well, and they'll insist you can't compare infant mortality, due to unsubstantiated assertions about how stillborn babies or preemies get counted (these right-wing assertions are pretty much always paraphrased from some right-wing propaganda site, rather than backed up by actual evidence). If I address this now by pointing out that children age 1-to-5 die in the US at rates equally or even more elevated relative to kids in the same age group in other developed countries, as is true, you'll surely have some reason those stats don't count, either. And if I show mortality is higher for Americans age 5-to-10, to an even greater proportional extent, you'll go hunting for some right-wing site to tell you why you're at liberty to ignore that, as well. We could go right on up the mortality rates, for teens, twenties, and so on. I've been through this before. For every age range, there was some half-clever, wholly-unsubstantiated assertion for why that elevated mortality was a statistical illusion or had nothing to do with healthcare (e.g., American teens just die more because they drive more).

    That's how debates work when one side starts with an unshakable quasi-religious faith in its conclusions. It doesn't matter how many pieces of evidence show they're wrong. They'll just bend their efforts to coming up with a reason the evidence can be ignored, then they'll return to their evidence-free beliefs.

    So yes, I get it: maternal mortality, infant mortality, and every other category of mortality can't be compared -- not for any reason you cited, but because comparing them would suggest something you're not comfortable with.
    Arkady...you rock. Thank you.
    Thanks from Arkady

  6. #36
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    Affluence and wealth have a downside. Why are our poor obese? Why do they have money to spend on drugs? It's because our poor are the wealthiest poor people on the planet. Unfortunately people who have been encouraged to be "taken care of" by government do not take care of themselves. They don't eat healthy, they don't exercise, they don't seek prenatal care, they don't refrain from tobacco, alcohol and drugs while pregnant... And guess what the outcome is?

  7. #37
    the "good" prag pragmatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius the God View Post
    Arkady...you rock. Thank you.
    Red meat.

    No doubt.

  8. #38
    Veteran Member TNVolunteer73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrea View Post
    U.S. Has The Worst Rate of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World : NPR

    Nearly threes times the number of women die in the US as do in the UK from complications of pregnancy and childbirth.

    All hail the God of the free market. Make America Great Again!
    Yes drug abuse by mothers, Thanks to illegal immigrants smuggling.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pragmatic View Post
    Sort of like you did entering the issue absolutely certain that lack of Universal Healthcare was the root cause of the the high US mortality rates being reported....??
    I don't think our terrible healthcare system is the entirety of the reason for high US mortality rates. There are doubtless a number of causes. For example, our laissez faire approach to development has resulted in sprawl and horrible public transit, rendering most areas impossible to live and work in without constant recourse to the car. That means little walking and biking relative to other countries, which helps to make us fat and lazy and unhealthy. We also have no mandatory paid vacation or family leave, and very spotty application and enforcement of overtime rules, which results in Americans working much longer hours than in most other wealthy countries, also making it harder to live healthy lifestyles. And we subsidize the living crap out of corn in this country, which results in dirt-cheap carbohydrate bombs, by way of corn flower and high fructose corn syrup. Then there's our lack of gun control, which contributes to a much larger share of our population being murdered or maimed than is typical in other wealthy nations. Our rampant militarism probably also isn't helping.... although the number of service men coming home in body bags from out half-baked wars is probably not high enough to make a serious impact on mortality, the secondary impacts, by way of damaged soldiers becoming opioid addicts and domestic abusers might well show up in the mortality stats.

    But, we know without a reasonable doubt that our terrible healthcare system is a major factor. There have been too many confirming studies to dismiss that notion. For example, after Romneycare went into effect, researchers tracked mortality in Massachusetts and compared it to mortality in a matched set of counties in other states (counties with similar demographics and mortality stats as the Massachusetts counties, thus acting as a collective "control group"). It turns out that boosting healthcare access by way of something that amounted to a state-level Obamacare significantly brought down mortality, relative to the control group, saving thousands of lives. When we have that kind of data emphasizing the importance of health care access to mortality outcomes, it would be foolish to pretend our one-of--kind piece of shit of a healthcare system isn't part of the reason our mortality rates are higher than those in just about every other major wealthy nation.
    Last edited by Arkady; 27th September 2017 at 07:24 AM.

  10. #40
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Life expectancy down due to opioid crisis.

    https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...ife-expectancy

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