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  1. #21
    Veteran Member bajisima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think it's pretty clear he thinks its because she belongs to a different class, with different education levels and different economic opportunties.

    It's a shame that this paragraph detracts from Brooks's overall point, which I think a lot of conservatives (and anyone trying to figure out the Trump phenomenon) would support. Brooks says that those of us in the upper-middle class and above actively work to keep others from joining our ranks. There's always been a cultural divide between the have and have nots--it's not just about money or property. It's about culture and a kind of cultural literacy. His friend lacked cultural literacy that he thought was universal.

    Definitely cultural as well, one would be hard pressed to find a lot of that around here. I would venture a guess many here don't know what those things are either. I would have to go closer to Boston to see anything close to that.

  2. #22
    Burn it down Macduff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think it would be good for you to read Brooks's article but keep that one paragraph. I'd be interested in hearing your reaction to his actual thesis. I'm from an upper-middle class background (I grew up in northern Allegheny County (not quite as chi-chi Mount Lebanon or Upper St. Clair, but close) and I teach at a university known for helping those in impoverished backgrounds make it into the middle class, so the question is important to me.
    JD Vance addresses this issue towards the end of Hillbilly Elegy, only minus the elitism. He came from lower class background but managed to get into a good college and graduate. Despite that, he ran into some cultural barriers. How to network, how to present himself for a job interview, that kind of thing.

  3. #23
    Anarquistador StanStill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think it's pretty clear he thinks its because she belongs to a different class, with different education levels and different economic opportunties.

    It's a shame that this paragraph detracts from Brooks's overall point, which I think a lot of conservatives (and anyone trying to figure out the Trump phenomenon) would support. Brooks says that those of us in the upper-middle class and above actively work to keep others from joining our ranks. There's always been a cultural divide between the have and have nots--it's not just about money or property. It's about culture and a kind of cultural literacy. His friend lacked cultural literacy that he thought was universal.
    Touché... I had to go back and read the article. Glad I did, but now I regret snickering.

    Sort of reminds me of Bertrand Russell:

    "Manners consist in pretending that we think as well of others as of ourselves. Manners are necessary because, as a rule, there is a pretense; when our good opinion of others is genuine, manners look after themselves."

  4. #24
    Nuisance Factor Yeti 8 Jungle Swing Champion, YetiSports 4 - Albatross Overload Champion, YetiSports7 - Snowboard FreeRide Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion boontito's Avatar
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    Wait... there are ways to get sandwiches that don't involve my wife?

    ::: runs away :::

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macduff View Post
    JD Vance addresses this issue towards the end of Hillbilly Elegy, only minus the elitism. He came from lower class background but managed to get into a good college and graduate. Despite that, he ran into some cultural barriers. How to network, how to present himself for a job interview, that kind of thing.
    Of course, that's always been true. My dad grew up a poor country kid in WV. He had to change the way he spoke (his accent and idiom) and lots of other things. But there wasn't a barrier to entry in the way there is now--that's Brooks's point.

    Why do you see Brooks as a bearer of "elitism?" Can he avoid his class and origins anymore than Vance can? You want Brooks to speak to these issues as if he'd grown up working class in the Ohio Valley? Probably not a reasonable request.

    Students at my university are overwhelmingly quite poor and of Mexican descent. I am neither and never was. I guess I'm hopeless and should just resign so they can hire some poor latino to replace me. No way an elitist like me could invite someone else to join the ranks of the cultural bourgeoise.

    So much for "Hamilton."
    Last edited by Rasselas; 12th July 2017 at 11:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macduff View Post
    I also took a friend who only has a high school diploma to a sandwich shop. I will never forget the fear and confusion in her eyes. She tried to eat napkins. I realized that she was too stupid for sandwiches and took her somewhere else.
    According to Brooks' third paragraph, it was your friend's fault, it was because she didn't get enough titty milk.

  7. #27
    Burn it down Macduff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    Of course, that's always been true. My dad grew up a poor country kid in WV. He had to change the way he spoke (his accent and idiom) and lots of other things. But there wasn't a barrier to entry in the way there is now--that's Brooks's point.

    Why do you see Brookes as a bearer of "elitism?" Can he avoid his class and origins anymore than Vance can? You want Brooks to speak to these issues as if he'd grown up working class in the Ohio Valley? Probably not a reasonable request.
    That story about the sandwich shop reveals a lot of condescension. I think he could stand not to look down on people. I know a lot of incredibly well read and informed people who don't have college degrees. I know of a lot of families where the wealthiest person in that family didn't extend their education past high school. I doubt this was as jarring an experience for his friend as he made it out to be.

  8. #28
    Burn it down Macduff's Avatar
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    Lol!

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasselas View Post
    I think it's pretty clear he thinks its because she belongs to a different class, with different education levels and different economic opportunties.

    It's a shame that this paragraph detracts from Brooks's overall point, which I think a lot of conservatives (and anyone trying to figure out the Trump phenomenon) would support. Brooks says that those of us in the upper-middle class and above actively work to keep others from joining our ranks. There's always been a cultural divide between the have and have nots--it's not just about money or property. It's about culture and a kind of cultural literacy. His friend lacked cultural literacy that he thought was universal.
    Wealthy conservatives understand the point and the Trump phenomenon, it is the wealthy liberals that Brooks identifies with.

    In thinking about the wealthy and successful people that I know and have met all over the country, the wealthy conservatives are mostly self-made, are interested in knowing the latest gourmet sandwich shop and can identify with the Trump Supporter because they grew up in the same neighborhood.

    It is people whose life and money came easy that put stock in that culture and are set back by such cultural illiteracy. Those folks are typically liberal.

    I wouldn't have had any problem taking a high school drop out friend to that sandwich shop and making them feel comfortable.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
    Wealthy conservatives understand the point and the Trump phenomenon, it is the wealthy liberals that Brooks identifies with.

    In thinking about the wealthy and successful people that I know and have met all over the country, the wealthy conservatives are mostly self-made, are interested in knowing the latest gourmet sandwich shop and can identify with the Trump Supporter because they grew up in the same neighborhood.

    It is people whose life and money came easy that put stock in that culture and are set back by such cultural illiteracy. Those folks are typically liberal.

    I wouldn't have had any problem taking a high school drop out friend to that sandwich shop and making them feel comfortable.
    You do know who David Brooks is, right?


    David Brooks (born August 11, 1961)[1] is an American conservative[2][3] political and cultural commentator who writes for The New York Times.[4] He has worked as a film critic for The Washington Times, a reporter and later op-ed editor for The Wall Street Journal;[5] a senior editor at The Weekly Standard from its inception; a contributing editor at Newsweek and The Atlantic Monthly; and a commentator on NPR. He is currently a columnist for The New York Times and commentator on PBS NewsHour.[1]

    Are you saying he was a liberal all along?
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